Taking the Eucharist/ Communion

[themaheri]

I was recently teasing (all in good fun) an Orthodox friend of mine when I stumbled upon an interesting point:

“I hope to someday be in communion with you like St. Iscariot. ” My point simply was that we both more or less believe the other is part of the True Church, but that Judas probably isn’t/wasn’t. Why can’t we take communion together on a regular basis (I am familiar with the exceptions in the Catechism) if Judas was allowed to take it with the others?

I’m not a member of the RCC, which I know is in communion with the OC, while not the reverse or something… I also know that Judas isn’t a saint. I do acknowledge the real presence.

John 13:26-27 (ASV)
“Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, What thou doest, do quickly”

This is the only quote that I could find to defend his position… but Judas seemed to be a devil all along since he was known to steal money from the group coffer… and it always says that one of you IS a devil not WILL BECOME.

In the epistles more is added… and I kinda realize that you can justify closed communion for my own protection based on latter events… so, can I ask that God judge me and take communion at my own risk? I might have done so before since “minor” doctrinal issues mean nothing to me if I accept the larger part of a church to be in communion with the true Church (RCC and/or OC and/or PC and/or Pre-Christ and/or Natural Religion, however you wish to define it)… the same way the RCC invites the OC to take the Eucharist.

Let’s hear some ideas

 

[DavidFilmer]

“Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, What thou doest, do quickly”

That wasn’t the Eucharist.

This Passover Supper was a Jewish Seder meal. It has various parts, and includes three cups of wine consumed at different intervals, with various types of foods consumed in between. The event described in John was one of those ordinary food courses.

The last cup (and culmination of the Seder Meal) is the “Cup of Blessing,” which was the point during the meal when Jesus enacted the first Eucharist.

John’s Gospel does not describe the Eucharist specifically, but the Synoptic Gospels all do. They are not in absolute agreement about the timing of Judas’ departure from the Seder Meal. According to Luke 22, Judas’ role as traitor was revealed immediately after the Consecration, whereas in Mark 14 and Matthew 26, he was exposed immediately before the Consecration. In either event, he would have surely left ASAP and would have never participated in the Cup of Blessing. We may presume that John 13 is in agreement with Mark and Matthew that Judas was exposed before the Consecration (which would have followed the events of vs 26-27, though it was not recorded by John). This meshes quite nicely with Matthew 26:23 (which describes the same event of dipping the (ordinary) bread), which precedes the Consecration, as Matthew clearly establishes.

There is no Biblical evidence that Judas participated in the Cup of Blessing, when Jesus established the Eucharist and handed it on to the Apostles.

 

[themaheri]

Sorry, I seem to never be clear. The reason I quote the passage from John is that there have been arguments that Judas was in communion prior to when the Devil entered him… so he could take the Eucharist.

Luke 22 (NIV)
17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.” 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

See, Judas was at the table. That is, if you say that communion even takes place in Luke (read the rest of 22, nothing else is said)… I believe it is the official RCC and OC stance that Judas was at the table since Luke says he is there, John doesn’t place it in order but does allow Judas to partake in the sacrament of foot washing, and Matthew/Mark don’t have Judas leaving if my memory serves me right.

 

[DavidFilmer]

See, Judas was at the table. That is, if you say that communion even takes place in Luke (read the rest of 22, nothing else is said)… I believe it is the official RCC and OC stance that Judas was at the table since Luke says he is there, John doesn’t place it in order but does allow Judas to partake in the sacrament of foot washing, and Matthew/Mark don’t have Judas leaving if my memory serves me right.

As I said, in Luke’s Gospel, Judas is exposed as a traitor immediately after the Consecration (although Matthew, Mark, and certainly John place it before).

At best, then, Judas is exposed as a traitor just after the Consecration. This means he was present for the Eucharistic ritual of the Cup of Blessing, but would have left before participating in the Cup of Blessing. None of the Synoptic authors actually describe the timing of Judas’ departure, but it is natural to presume it was quickly after his exposure as a traitor. It is absurd to imagine that Jesus exposed Judas as his enemy and traitor, but Judas hung around to partake in the Cup of Blessing.

Anyone may be present at a Catholic Mass, but only Catholics may (normally) receive.

Judas may have been present at the ritual (according to one of the four Gospels), but he did not receive (and no Gospel claims otherwise).

 

[choy]

also, the proper term is RECEIVE the Eucharist

we don’t take it

taking Jesus Christ is like kidnapping him, forcing him against his will
Jesus Christ offers Himself to us, and we receive Him

 

[themaheri]

Luke 22 (NIV)
17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.” 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

During the Eucharistic rite, people do no always partake of the cup but the body alone… still, 23 tells us that they don’t know who it is even after they have/are partaking of the cup. If someone got up and left at this point it would have been mentioned, the meal goes on so there is plenty of time for Judas to leave later since ~5-10mins are likely to be passing between verses.

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Judas

"‘Since Judas’s betrayal of Jesus likely was a grave sin, why did Jesus give him Communion at the Last Supper? Or had Judas left the table by that point?’
A:

‘If Judas did receive Communion—as Scripture appears to indicate (Lk 22:19-23)—then there may be any number of reasons why Christ allowed it even though he had already been plotting Christ’s betrayal (Lk 22:3-4). Two possibilities include: Christ may have hoped that the grace of Communion ultimately could save Judas’s soul. Judas did indeed feel remorse for what he did (Mt 27:3-4), although he chose the wrong means to demonstrate that remorse (Mt 27:5). Or perhaps Christ respected Judas’s free will, just as he respects our free will, and so did not deny Judas Communion even though he apparently did not have faith that it was Christ’s body and blood (Jn 6:66-71)’.
—Michelle Arnold"

Glad we cleared that up… anyone wish to discuss the OP?

 

[puzzleannie]

I
Let’s hear some ideas

what is your question?
did Judas receive the consecrated body and blood of the Lord before he left the room? search on the scripture forum for discussion

is it appropriate to tease my Orthodox friend, or anyone, about their religion? Never.

Why cannot Christians communicate in churches of other Christians who are not united with Rome? that also can be searched on the liturgy forum and has been amply answered.

your personal beliefs aside, it is the Catholic Church to whom the sacraments were entrusted by Christ so it is for her to invite those in union with her to partake of the living sign of that union. Orthodox Christians are invited to receive communion when they have no access to their own churches. The Orthodox do not however reciprocate.

 

[themaheri]

Let me clarify using the first line from wiki:
“Apologetics (from Greek απολογία, “speaking in defense”) is the discipline of defending a position (usually religious) through the systematic use of reason.”

“did Judas receive the consecrated body and blood of the Lord before he left the room? search on the scripture forum for discussion”
Not the question, although it is quite interesting why a doctrinal decision hasn’t been made by the Magisterium. There appears to be some debate but the majority of people I’ve every talked to hold that Judas was present. I don’t mean to attack a straw-man if the Magisterium has stated that Judas was not present… let me know if a decision has been made.

From the OP: Why can’t we take communion together on a regular basis if Judas was allowed to take it with the others?
From the Church’s perspective outside of independent denominations, closed communion seems ridiculous if Jesus seems to teach that those not in “communion” with the believers are just as welcome to take part in the Eucharist. If we accept the justifications presented by Michelle Arnold:

‘If Judas did receive Communion—as Scripture appears to indicate (Lk 22:19-23)—then there may be any number of reasons why Christ allowed it even though he had already been plotting Christ’s betrayal (Lk 22:3-4). Two possibilities include: Christ may have hoped that the grace of Communion ultimately could save Judas’s soul. Judas did indeed feel remorse for what he did (Mt 27:3-4), although he chose the wrong means to demonstrate that remorse (Mt 27:5). Or perhaps Christ respected Judas’s free will, just as he respects our free will, and so did not deny Judas Communion even though he apparently did not have faith that it was Christ’s body and blood (Jn 6:66-71)’.
—Michelle Arnold"

Then we are able to say that Christ did not support the concept of closed communion since Judas was far from the “correct” state when he partook of it. Or we can simply state the ridiculous that “Judas was closer to being in communion with the RCC than the PC’s are.”

“your personal beliefs aside, it is the Catholic Church to whom the sacraments were entrusted by Christ so it is for her to invite those in union with her to partake of the living sign of that union.”
This isn’t the Discussion forum, this is Apologetics… if the RCC is found to contradict the teachings of Christ then your personal beliefs in the RCC’s sole authority seem to be void without a defense of the concepts in contention.

 

[diggerdomer]

That wasn’t the Eucharist.

This Passover Supper was a Jewish Seder meal. It has various parts, and includes three cups of wine consumed at different intervals, with various types of foods consumed in between. The event described in John was one of those ordinary food courses.

The last cup (and culmination of the Seder Meal) is the “Cup of Blessing,” which was the point during the meal when Jesus enacted the first Eucharist.

John’s Gospel does not describe the Eucharist specifically, but the Synoptic Gospels all do. They are not in absolute agreement about the timing of Judas’ departure from the Seder Meal. According to Luke 22, Judas’ role as traitor was revealed immediately after the Consecration, whereas in Mark 14 and Matthew 26, he was exposed immediately before the Consecration. In either event, he would have surely left ASAP and would have never participated in the Cup of Blessing. We may presume that John 13 is in agreement with Mark and Matthew that Judas was exposed before the Consecration (which would have followed the events of vs 26-27, though it was not recorded by John). This meshes quite nicely with Matthew 26:23 (which describes the same event of dipping the (ordinary) bread), which precedes the Consecration, as Matthew clearly establishes.

There is no Biblical evidence that Judas participated in the Cup of Blessing, when Jesus established the Eucharist and handed it on to the Apostles.

Are you saying the Gospel of John’s account of the Last Supper was not Eucharist? No way.

Regardless, all Gospels indicate Judas was present at the Last Supper.