Talking about 'enemies' with uncle

[chosen_people]

Thank you for sharing your opinions about ‘enemies’: It seems that we agree amongst ourselves that satan himself is our enemy. Additionally, I reason that the people who do not accept Christ are living under the influence of the evil one, and spread his lies. The people who believe in other religions or in no religion have accepted the evil one’s lies. They are ignorant of the truth, but I do not hate them for this: I only wish to show them Jesus as the way, yet first I must define them as adversary. I would ask you, how do you negotiate with non-believers?

Well certainly, according to John 8 this is true of the Jews:

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[Darran]

Everything this person said. Truth is present in all religion and NO religion is our “enemy” for espousing different ideas. Heretic is a mighty word and it was not in the correct context.

No, to bring it back onto the right terms, all religion contrary to Catholicism in all rights exists because of satan. In our Baptism we rejected “satan and all his empty promises”. As such, all contrary religions cost dear souls and it wouldn’t be improper to call it “enemy”. A distinction just has to be made between the religion and it’s followers.

It is true that some indeed have threads of truth in it, and perhaps enough for an ignorant good-willed person to reach heaven, but it’s also true that the devil can mislead a person with even a 99% truth.

 

[chosen_people]

“Do you see that demons dwell in their souls and that these demons are more dangerous than the ones of old? And this is very reasonable. In the old days the Jews acted impiously toward the prophets; now they outrage the Master of the prophets. Tell me this. Do you not shudder to come into the same place with men possessed, who have so many unclean spirits, who have been reared amid slaughter and bloodshed? Must you share a greeting with them and exchange a bare word? Must you not turn away from them since they are the common disgrace and infection of the whole world? Have they not come to every form of wickedness? Have not all the prophets spent themselves making many and long speeches of accusation against them? What tragedy, what manner of lawlessness have they not eclipsed by their blood-guiltiness? They sacrificed their own sons and daughters to demons. They refused to recognize nature, they forgot the pangs, of birth, they trod underfoot the rearing of their children, they overturned from their foundations the laws of kingship, they became more savage than any wild beast.”

Saint John Chrysostom

 

[chosen_people]

Thank you for sharing your opinions about ‘enemies’: It seems that we agree amongst ourselves that satan himself is our enemy. Additionally, I reason that the people who do not accept Christ are living under the influence of the evil one, and spread his lies. The people who believe in other religions or in no religion have accepted the evil one’s lies. They are ignorant of the truth, but I do not hate them for this: I only wish to show them Jesus as the way, yet first I must define them as adversary. I would ask you, how do you negotiate with non-believers?

Here’s what Pope Gelasius I had to say about Judas, the Jews and the devil:

“In the Bible, the whole is often named after the part; as Judas was called devil and the devil’s workman, he gives his name to the whole race” (Macoby, Judas 5-6).

 

[homegrowntwinki]

is it the same uncle that molested you?

 

[chosen_people]

Thank you for sharing your opinions about ‘enemies’: It seems that we agree amongst ourselves that satan himself is our enemy. Additionally, I reason that the people who do not accept Christ are living under the influence of the evil one, and spread his lies. The people who believe in other religions or in no religion have accepted the evil one’s lies. They are ignorant of the truth, but I do not hate them for this: I only wish to show them Jesus as the way, yet first I must define them as adversary. I would ask you, how do you negotiate with non-believers?

Just to make sure that I have this right:

The devil is the enemy of the Christian god and Christianity;

The Jews/Judaism are under the influence of the devil and accept and spread the devil’s lies;

Therefore, Jews/Judaism are the enemy of (the Christian) god and the enemy of Christianity

Is that a fair summary of what you are trying to say?

 

[Dale_M]

He defended Judas by saying that he was necessary for the salvation of the world.

Your uncle may be trying to make a parallel to the well-known portion of the Easter vigil in which we thank Adam for falling from grace.

O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!

Your uncle seems to think that the actions of Judas were necessary, in that Christ needed to sacrifice himself for us. And the betrayal of Judas set this up. However, I am not sure that idea has a good grounding in Catholic thought

 

[Musician]

Really? You know what went on in Judas’ heart and mind at the time of his death? Even the Church doesn’t say that Judas is in Hell, you know.

Again, I have to ask – really? Everyone who “espouses different ideas” are our enemies?

Where does the Church teach that there is no truth in other religions?

I think you need to learn a lot more about the Catholic faith before you start calling people heretics. I’m glad you’re embarassed. You should be.

This.
You should be more respectful.

 

[tritcher1988]

Good, Thank you all so very much for your thoughts on ‘enemies’. It appears to me that you all agree that the word ‘enemy’ is not appropriate for use in a public debate. This is important because I wish for non-believers to feel secure and calm when I debate them. For example, I consider Mr. chosenpeople to be my ‘adversary’ in that he has denied Christ, and I am commanded to love him as my brother and to bring him into the fullness of truth through Christ. In addition, I am resolved that the Christian God is Trininarian, and the Jewish God is not Trinitarian. And I am resolved that the Jewish people living before Christ believed in the truth, yet the Jewish people living today believe in lies that refute Jesus. Thus the Jews of today are my ‘adversaries’. Please, I wish to represent the Church in what I say: I would ask you: Is this too harsh of a statement?

 

[tritcher1988]

Good, Thank you all so very much for your thoughts on ‘enemies’. It appears to me that you all agree that the word ‘enemy’ is not appropriate for use in a public debate. This is important because I wish for non-believers to feel secure and calm when I debate them. For example, I consider Mr. chosenpeople to be my ‘adversary’ in that he has denied Christ, and I am commanded to love him as my brother and to bring him into the fullness of truth through Christ. In addition, I am resolved that the Christian God is Trininarian, and the Jewish God is not Trinitarian. And I am resolved that the Jewish people living before Christ believed in the truth, yet the Jewish people living today believe in lies that refute Jesus. Thus the Jews of today are my ‘adversaries’. Please, I wish to represent the Church in what I say: I would ask you: Is this too harsh of a statement?

 

[chosen_people]

Good, Thank you all so very much for your thoughts on ‘enemies’. It appears to me that you all agree that the word ‘enemy’ is not appropriate for use in a public debate. This is important because I wish for non-believers to feel secure and calm when I debate them. For example, I consider Mr. chosenpeople to be my ‘adversary’ in that he has denied Christ, and I am commanded to love him as my brother and to bring him into the fullness of truth through Christ. In addition, I am resolved that the Christian God is Trininarian, and the Jewish God is not Trinitarian. And I am resolved that the Jewish people living before Christ believed in the truth, yet the Jewish people living today believe in lies that refute Jesus. Thus the Jews of today are my ‘adversaries’. Please, I wish to represent the Church in what I say: I would ask you: Is this too harsh of a statement?

Judaism teaches that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the world to come as they have only to follow the seven Noahide commandments. Judaism therefore is a true universal religion. You do not have to be born a Jew or accept Judaism for redemption. In the book of Yonah (Jonah) we see Jonah being sent by God to a foreign place for the redemption of a Gentile city which is in fact granted redemption (Christians seem to miss the point of this book). There is one God and He is the God of all and we are His children. We can therefore see why it is neither necessary or desirable to encourage conversion to Judaism though Judaism allows and fully accepts converts.

The Jewish people have been chosen by God to fulfill special missions. God chose the Jewish people to be His servant, His witness (Isaiah 43:10)'to be a light unto the nations as examples of ethics and holiness and to lead the world back to God (Exodus 19:6 and Isaiah 42:6) and to bring the Messiah ben David into the world (Jeremiah 23:5, 1 Chronicles 17:11-12).

There is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.

Every Jew has a portion in the world to come. According to Maimonides there are fourteen ways a Jew may lose his portion in the world to come. While Christianity does not constitute idolatry for Gentiles, any Jew who adopts Christian beliefs and concepts of God, is cut off forever from God and the Jewish people. You can therefore understand why on the one hand we do not feel the need to convert non Jews but on the other the attempt to convert a Jew and cause him to break the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people, to cause him to be forever caught off from God and the Jewish people, is repugnant to us.

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated,that in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.

{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.

"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת

---

 

[Darran]

Thus the Jews of today are my ‘adversaries’. Please, I wish to represent the Church in what I say: I would ask you: Is this too harsh of a statement?

Well, rather “Judaism” should be your adversary. The Jews of the OT and the Jews of today aren’t the same. The old Covenant was fulfilled, what is now are man made cults similar to protestantism.

 

[Darran]

Do tell. The Jewish Temple, priesthood & sacrifices ended with Pentecost and was wiped out in 70 AD. It is a matter of history. Or were you misreading me? Modern Judaism is heresy and should be fought against, not the Jewish people. Boldness is a virtue.

 

[chosen_people]

The Catholic outlook being referred to posits that the entire religion of Judaism was focused on one singular point: the Temple, sacrifices and the high priesthood. This is the Judaism of the covenant. With the destruction of the Temple, Judaism was replaced by rabbinical Judaism, which is not the Judaism of the covenant. A few Jews remained loyal to the covenant by accepting Jesus while most of the Jews rejected their covenant with God by the rejection of Jesus.The Jews loyal to the covenant were later joined by Gentiles and formed the Catholic Church. Therefore the Catholic Church is the fulfillment and the continuation of the covenant between the Jewish people and God.

Now the above to me, as a Jew, is incomprehensible and illogical and demands a deep misunderstanding of Judaism,Jewish history and the Jewish scriptures. However, to the best of my knowledge this view is widely accepted among Catholics.

 

[tritcher1988]

Yes, I have noticed that calling someone ‘adversary’ usually stirs up conflict. I ask that you reserve the Judaism vs. Catholicism debate for another thread. I thank you for helping me to become comfortable when speaking with those who exhibit non-christian values. Please, let us continue by addressing a clash seen in the original post: My uncle maintains that there is much to be learned from other religions,and that it is our responsibility to “gather as much truth as possible from them.”, I contested this by saying: “All of the truth that man will ever need has been revealed in the christian scriptures.” I would now modify this to: “All of the truth that man will ever need is present in the Christian scriptures and Church’s traditions.” I would now ask you Catholics: Do you search for truth outside of Catholicism?

 

[tomarin]

Now the above to me, as a Jew, is incomprehensible and illogical and demands a deep misunderstanding of Judaism,Jewish history and the Jewish scriptures. However, to the best of my knowledge this view is widely accepted among Catholics.

(shortened by Tomarin)

To the best of my knowledge this view is either perfectly unknown or widely shunned among Catholics.

 

[Phillepe]

(shortened by Tomarin)

To the best of my knowledge this view is either perfectly unknown or widely shunned among Catholics.

Comming out of the woodwork

It is fairly common. I don’t see why it would seem illogical, imagine if our line of Bishops ended. But then again I’m not a historian and haven’t heard any critique of the view in order to confirm or deny it with certainty, but it is referred to often enough.

Edit: See The Catholic Encyclopedia and “Judaism since AD 70”

The discussion is probably best left to another thread though as said.

 

[tritcher1988]

Again, please reserve the Catholicism vs. Judaism debate for another thread. I continue to be interested in your thoughts concerning the validity of truth found in other religions. I vaguely recall a quote from Pope John Paul II concerning this issue. It is of interest to me that Mr. (name removed by moderator) has learned much about his Catholic faith while coming into contact with the Jewish and Muslim ideas. At the prompting of a priest, I learned about Catholicism by studying it’s heresies. Although it may be necessary for others to come into contact with other religions, I observe that it is dangerous and confusing to the one who does such. I have no desire to discern any sort of truth from other beliefs now that I am convinced that Catholicism is god’s truth. Do you others search for truth outside of the Church?

 

[tritcher1988]

Well, anyway, thanks everyone for talking to me about this. I feel much better about the whole issue! Peace! :thankyou: