Teaching on dead infants

[Matthew_Holford]

I am confused about what the Latin Catholic Church teaches on what happens to the souls of the following:

1. • Those who are murdered by abortion
   • Those who die in utero resulting in either miscarriage or still birth.
   They can only have original sin. They have not had the opportunity to commit personal sin. The Church, I understand, does not teach about limbo. So, what happens to these infants:
   • Surely, God’s mercy would not allow their souls to go to hell
   • As they have no personal sins for which punishment is still due why would they go purgatory
   • I cannot accept that their souls must be wondering no where.
   The only thing I can fathom knowing that there are no limits to God’s love and mercy that these souls cannot go anywhere other than to heaven.

 

[tbcrawford]

To those of us who have lost children as babies,this may be a very painful topic.There have been so many threads on this before and so many people have been deeply hurt. I know my 2 children are safe in heaven.My priests have always told me this and taught this including Fr Vincent Serpa here. For all parents who have lost a child as a baby and for the souls of our children praying for us in heaven I say a prayer to Our Lady…

PRAYER TO
OUR SORROWFUL MOTHER
O Mother of Sorrows, thou,
who beneath the Cross of Jesus
were given to us as our Mother,
look down with pity on us,
thy children, who weep and mourn in this valley of tears.
By that sword of sorrow which pierced thy Heart
when thou looked upon the Face of thy dead Son,
obtain for us that comfort
we so sorely need in our sufferings.

Thou were given to us our Mother
in the hour of thy greatest grief
that thou might be mindful of our frailty
and the evils that press upon us.
Without thy aid, O Sorrowful Mother,
we cannot gain the victory
in this struggle against flesh and blood.
Therefore, we seek thy help,
O Queen of Sorrows,
lest we fall prey to the wiles of the enemy.
We are orphans in need of the guiding hand of our Mother
amid the dangers that threaten our destruction.
Thou whose grief was boundless as the sea,
grant us by the memory of those sorrows
the strength to be victorious.

Intercede further, O Mother of Sorrows,
for us and all who are near and dear to us,
that we may ever do the Will of thy Son,
and may direct all our actions to His honour,
and to the furtherance of devotion to thy sorrows.

Amen.

Virgin Most Sorrowful,
pray for us.

Say 1 of each prayer…

Our Father…
Hail Mary…
Glory Be…

 

[PJM]

=Matthew Holford;7308235]I am confused about what the Latin Catholic Church teaches on what happens to the souls of the following:

1. • Those who are murdered by abortion
   • Those who die in utero resulting in either miscarriage or still birth.

1. 
   

   They can only have original sin. They have not had the opportunity to commit personal sin. The Church, I understand, does not teach about limbo. So, what happens to these infants:

   • Surely, God’s mercy would not allow their souls to go to hell
   • As they have no personal sins for which punishment is still due why would they go purgatory
   • I cannot accept that their souls must be wondering no where.

   The only thing I can fathom knowing that there are no limits to God’s love and mercy that these souls cannot go anywhere other than to heaven.

   ** Several points**
   
   Most assureadly they DO NOT GO TO HELL…PERIOD!
   
   However the CC holds that we can not know with Certitude that they get to meet God face to face."
   
   The Church does PERMIT one to hold the personal view that God in His Perfect Mercy [which is more powerful than Divine Justice] will :
   1. NOT allow the holy innocents to suffer
   2. That God’s love and Mercy will listen to the parents left grievng and POSSIBLY allow the FAITH of the parents to surfice.

 

[Dorothy]

Whenever this topic comes up I think of the Feast of the Holy Innocents.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

It seems to me the Church leaves us in limbo.

I was certain they would not go to hell.

As they cannot have personal sin I see no point of their souls being in purgatory.

I know the Church has never taught that limbo exists but permits individual’s to believe in limbo if they want to.

If the Church cannot be sure that they go to heaven, we are left with unanswered question: where do their souls go?

 

[Cara_Serrano]

I really miss the concept of Limbo. Having lost infants through miscarriage, I was curious as to where they were after death. I was told by a priest that they were not in hell, but probably not enjoying the fullness of the beatific vision. At first this saddened and angered me. I told the priest that my children were probably better off not seeing a God who didn’t want them in His presence. In my grief, I longed to be with them in that place that was not hell and not with God either. Ever since they died, the thought of going to heaven has saddened me because I won’t see my children there. Given a choice, I would have chosen an eternity with them in Limbo than being without them in heaven.

I hope the posters who believe the unborn go to heaven are right. Are there any Church documents that support this theory?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I hope the posters who believe the unborn go to heaven are right. Are there any Church documents that support this theory?

No! The Church completely leaves us with no answers in this area. It is with issues like these that make me angry with the Church! Parents who have lost a child are in desperate need of the pastoral care of the Church.

I for one strongly believe that there is no way God is going to leave the souls of these children wondering nowhere. In my opinion, they go straight to heaven and are not denied the beatific vision. Why would they be denied this? I believe God is more merciful and loving than this. Thankfully, He is not constrained by the rules the Church makes.

 

[Dorothy]

According to the Catechism, the Church wants us to trust them to the mercy of God.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

According to the Catechism, the Church wants us to trust them to the mercy of God.
Dorothy;7308688:

Sounds good to me.

Me too.

According to the Catechism, the Church wants us to trust them to the mercy of God.

I believe that mercy is for them to be in His presence in heaven

 

[Cara_Serrano]

Thank you Matthew and Dorothy for your responses. I do trust in the mercy of God as Dorothy mentioned, but, like Matthew, I was hoping for a bit more pastoral care on earth.

 

[PJM]

[QUOT]E=Matthew Holford;7308550]It seems to me the Church leaves us in limbo.

I was certain they would not go to hell.

As they cannot have personal sin I see no point of their souls being in purgatory.

I know the Church has never taught that limbo exists but permits individual’s to believe in limbo if they want to.

If the Church cannot be sure that they go to heaven, we are left with unanswered question: where do their souls go?

Hi Matt, actually the CC does teach and hold “Limbo” as a valid doctrine.*** From Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary:***

LIMBO
The abode of souls excluded from the full blessedness of the beatific vision, but not suffering any other punishment. They enjoy the happiness that would have been human destiny if humans had not been elevated to the supernatural order.

Catholic theology distinguishes two kinds of limbo. The limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum) was the place where the saints of the Old Testament remained until Christ’s coming and redemption of the world. The limbo of infants (limbus infantium) is the permanent state of those who die in original sin but are innocent of any personal guilt.

Regarding the limbo of infants, it is an article of the Catholic faith that those who die without baptism, and for whom the act of baptism has not been supplied in some other way, cannot enter heaven. This is the teaching of the ecumenical councils of Florence and Trent. After defining justification as “a passing from the state in which man is born of the first Adam, to the state of grace and adoption as sons of God,” Trent declared, “Since the Gospel was promulgated, this passing cannot take place without the water of regeneration or the desire for it, as it is written, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5)” (Denzinger 1524).

Some theologians of renown have thought that God might supply the want of baptism by some other means. St. Bernard suggested that such infants could reach heaven because of the faith of their parents (De Baptismo I, 4; II, 1). Cardinal Cajetan (1469-1534) espoused the same theory, but Pope St. Pius V had the passage removed from Cajetan’s works.

The great majority of theologians, approved by the Church, teach that infants who die in original sin suffer no “pain of sense.” They are simply excluded from the beatific vision. Do they grieve because of heaven? St. Thomas Aquinas answers that they do not, because pain of punishment is proportioned to personal guilt, which does not exist here. Rather, “They rejoice because they share in God’s goodness and in many natural perfections” (De Malo, V, 3). It is believed that infants in limbo know and love God intensely by the use of their natural powers, and the enjoy full natural happiness.

The Church has never defined the existence of limbo, although she has more than once supported the fact by her authority. Those who either deny that heaven is a supernatural destiny to which no creature has a natural claim, or who deny that original sin deprives a person of a right to heaven logically also deny the very possibility of limbo. On their premises there is no need of such a place. Among others who denied the existence of limbo were the Jansenists, whose theory of selective predestination excluded the need for any mediatorial source of grace, including baptism. They were condemned by Pope Pius VI as teaching something “false, rash and injurious to Catholic education,” because they claimed that it was a Pelagian fable to hold that there is a place “which the faithful generally designate by the name of limbo of children,” for the souls of those who depart this life with the sole guilt of original sin (Denzinger 2626). Pope Pius XII declared that “an act of love can suffice for an adult to acquire sanctifying grace and supply for the lack of baptism; to the unborn or newly born infant this way is not open” (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, XLIII, 84). At stake in the traditional belief in limbo is the revealed doctrine that heaven is a sheer gift of divine goodness and that baptism of water or desire is necessary to enter heaven. (Etym. Latin limbo, ablative form of limbus, border; taken from “in limbo patrum” [in the border of hell reserved for the fathers (or saints)], a phrase used by the Church Fathers.)

 

[1ke]

Surely, God’s mercy would not allow their souls to go to hell

We do not know this to be a fact and the Church does not teach this as ruled out. The Church teaches we do not know the fate of unbaptized infants. We can hope.

As they have no personal sins for which punishment is still due why would they go purgatory

We simply do not know if there is purgation or not.

I cannot accept that their souls must be wondering no where.

The Church teaches that at death we are judged and we either go to Heaven or to Hell. If we are destined for Heaven, we may or may not go through Purgatory. There is no other place, and souls do not “wander.”

The only thing I can fathom knowing that there are no limits to God’s love and mercy that these souls cannot go anywhere other than to heaven.

The Church does not teach that they go to heaven, and we cannot know whether they go to heaven.

What the Church **actually **teaches on the subject:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

We do not know this to be a fact and the Church does not teach this as ruled out. The Church teaches we do not know the fate of unbaptized infants. We can hope.

We simply do not know if there is purgation or not.

The Church teaches that at death we are judged and we either go to Heaven or to Hell. If we are destined for Heaven, we may or may not go through Purgatory. There is no other place, and souls do not “wander.”

The Church does not teach that they go to heaven, and we cannot know whether they go to heaven.

What the Church **actually **teaches on the subject:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

The Church, therefore, leaves us in a confused state and provides us with contradictory teachings if I am to understand correctly what you have posted.

You quote from the Catechism which states that the Church does not know the fate of unbaptised infants.

In your post you say there are only three destinations for souls:

1. 
   *]Heaven
   *]Purgatory
   *]Hell
   
   What can a child, especially one in the womb, have done to be damned into Hell?
   
   My understanding is Purgatory is a place to which the souls go of those who have committed personal sin and is a place where they receive punishment for those personal sins. How can an infant, especially an unborn one, have committed any personal sins? Thus, why would their souls go to Purgatory?
   
   This leaves us with Heaven. However, if the Church teaches that the souls of unbaptised children do not necessarily go to Heaven, it would seem inappropriate that they should be damned to Hell, and because of the Church’s teaching on the purpose of Purgatory we are left with the same unanswered questions where do the souls of unborn infants go?
   
   There’s a possible final option - Limbo. It is my understanding that the Church does not officially teach the existence of Limbo.

 

[1ke]

The Church, therefore, leaves us in a confused state and provides us with contradictory teachings if I am to understand correctly what you have posted.

The Church cannot teach definitively that which has not been revealed to her.

You quote from the Catechism which states that the Church does not know the fate of unbaptised infants.

That is correct, the Church does not know.

In your post you say there are only three destinations for souls:

1. 
   *]Heaven
   *]Purgatory
   *]Hell

1. 
   There are only two destinations, eternally speaking-- Heaven and Hell. Purgation is a temporary state for those bound for Heaven.
   

   What can a child, especially one in the womb, have done to be damned into Hell?

   Original sin is sufficient.
   

   My understanding is Purgatory is a place to which the souls go of those who have committed personal sin and is a place where they receive punishment for those personal sins. How can an infant, especially an unborn one, have committed any personal sins? Thus, why would their souls go to Purgatory?

   We don’t know if there would be any purgation or not for such a soul.
   

   This leaves us with Heaven.

   No. It does not leave us with Heaven only. It leaves us with Heaven or Hell.
   

   However, if the Church teaches that the souls of unbaptised children do not necessarily go to Heaven, it would seem inappropriate that they should be damned to Hell, and because of the Church’s teaching on the purpose of Purgatory we are left with the same unanswered questions where do the souls of unborn infants go?

   It is not inappropriate. Original Sin is sufficient to damn us to Hell. It is by God’s mercy alone, working extraordinarily and outside the sacramental economy, that a person who dies in a state of Original Sin might enter Heaven, and that is why we have hope as the Church says.
   

   There’s a possible final option - Limbo. It is my understanding that the Church does not officially teach the existence of Limbo.

   The Church does have any doctrine pertaining to the theological speculation of limbo.
   
   Here is a 2007 Vatican document on the topic:
   
   vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

 

[ConstantineTG]

Fact is the Church doesn’t even now where adults who die will go. Saints only become as such if God reveals them to the Church. So we cannot know who else is in Heaven. The same goes for the children. But as scripture goes, Jesus said Heaven belongs to such as these (the children). So definitely there is more than enough hope that they do not end up anywhere else but in the presence of God.

 

[Dysmas1]

PJM, recently, during the Pontificate of Benedict XVI, the Church has ruled that Limbo was only the temporary state of the souls PRIOR to the death and resurrection of Jesus. Limbo has ended and definitively is no longer a place for ANY souls, unbaptised infants included.

There is however, theological speculation on two issues known as Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Both of which could be, and only be, provided by God’s Providence and mercy. As such there is a way to be baptized, in a sense, by God Himself, operating outside the normal confines of earthly sacramental economy. I believe that infants who are miscarried receive a Baptism of Desire as one would assume they would’ve been given the Sacrament had they been born. Murdered infants the same. Whereas martyrs who were unbaptised but choose to die for the faith would, perhaps, receive a Baptism of Blood.

Bottom line, as has been stated, the Church cannot teach what has not been revealed. We can only trust in the boundless Mercy of our Triune God. God IS merciful. God IS love.

Peace

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I shall refrain from further comment on this thread. I am afraid that the other things I have to say may get me banned from CAF as contradicting Church teaching is prohibited.

I think I shall devote Advent to praying for all those poor souls of infants who have been aborted, died in utero, died during birth, and any others who died before baptism:crying:

 

[tbcrawford]

I shall refrain from further comment on this thread. I am afraid that the other things I have to say may get me banned from CAF as contradicting Church teaching is prohibited.

I think I shall devote Advent to praying for all those poor souls of infants who have been aborted, died in utero, died during birth, and any others who died before baptism:crying:

Thakyou for your prayers Matthew and God bless… I trust in the counsel of my priests and Fr Vincent Serpa here