Testing for Spirit at Baptism in Spirit ok?

[Madaglan]

I hope that this question does not offend anyone, especially those who are charismatic.

This upcoming Tuesday I attend the so-called “Baptism in the Spirit” at my local parish. I have attended all of the Life in the Spirit seminars so far. I have noticed that many individuals who have received the Baptism in the Spirit claim that it has positively affected their outlook on life, and has created a greater relationship between them and God. So, I do see what might be termed “good fruits” in the charismatic experience. However, I still have some concerns. I have spoken with a charismatic priest about some flakey activity in some charismatic circles, and he has assured me that such flakey activity is not the Holy Spirit, but is the whim of eccentric fringe people. So, I understand that a little more now. The one concern that affects me most right now, however,–and one which I am having difficulty in dispelling–is the greater proclivity charismatic members have towards Protestant forms of worship and prayer. Not that these forms of prayer are necessarily bad, but I see expressed in my group the belief that we have things to learn from the Protestants. Now, the group also strongly believes in Catholic doctrines, so this isn’t as bad as it seems, but nonetheless I am having difficulty reconciling non-traditional forms of worship with traditional Catholic worship–and I keep in mind the maxim, lex orandi, lex credendi, or however that is spelled. I am a conservative Catholic, perhaps even reactionary to a degree. However, I also think it is cool that the charismatics appear to have a very close relationship with Christ, which they mostly attribute to this extra-sacramental baptism.

Again, I don’t mean to offend anyone when I say this, but Satan works in wily ways. I have learned this most especially when reading about Near Death Experiences. Many individuals have Near Death Experiences in which they have a spiritual experience and encounter loved ones in a great place of peace and serenity. However, unfortunately, many of the individuals who have these experiences claim non-Catholic “revelations,” such as the reality of reincarnation, no damnation, etc. Many accounts conflict with one another. So, being cautious as I am, I wonder if I should do as John recommends in his first letter—namely, to “test all spirits” by asking them to confess that Christ came in the flesh. I also have thought about testing by asking the spirit to confess that “Jesus is Lord.” In other words, I have thought about asking the spirit at the baptism in the Spirit to demonstrate the it is truly the Holy Spirit and not some evil spirit under the guise of an Angel of Light

My question therefore is: Should I test the invoked spirit at the “Baptism in the Spirit”? Originally I thought that John’s injunction covers any encounter with spirits, to make sure that it is the Holy Spirit present and not some malevolent spirit. However, a priest I know said that to do this at the “Baptism in the Spirit” would be tempting God, and is a big no-no. I have presently embraced this advice from my priest, and, if I am to gauge it from its fruits, the Charismatic Baptism in the Spirit is in itself of God, of the Holy Spirit; but I just want to have a wider consensus, since some of my other friends have mentioned to me that I should test all spirits, even in cases when everything “seems” all right. Any thoughts? And please, I know that some of you object to me undergoing this Baptism in the Spirit because you think that it’s not for me; but I here simply desire an answer to my question, and I appreciate it if we can focus on this. Thanks!

 

[rwoehmke]

I had a good friend who led our Charismatic prayer group, he is dead now at 47, who likened the Baptism in the Spirit to an unwrapping and more free use of those Spiritual Gifts we receive at Baptism and Confirmation. Many use these gifts in a very limited fashion. For the gifts see Isaiah 11 and Pauls letters. When we really allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in using these gifts (some are teachers, some prophets, etc.) particularly love good things happen. Spontaneous prayer and other so-called protestant ways of doing some things are not contradictory to Catholic life. Beginning to interpret your Bible in a literal and fundementalist fashion would, for example, be one of the things you would not want to borrow . Becoming a strong evangelistic person might be. Praying for discernment in all these things is very important. I think when your priest talked about not testing the spirits, he was talking about a practice that some call “fleecing” which comes from the Illiad or the Odessey. It is asking God a yes or no question and asking Him to put is answer in a very physical form. Putting out a piece fleece from a sheep and saying if it is wet or dry in the morning that will give one the answer from God is one example of this. By the way, John Paul II has for the Charismatic Movement, although like anything else there can be abuses.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by rwoehmke:

Beginning to interpret your Bible in a literal and fundementalist fashion would, for example, be one of the things you would not want to borrow . Becoming a strong evangelistic person might be. Praying for discernment in all these things is very important.

Yes, I totally understand where you’re coming from. My greatest concern is how the adoption of Protestant songs and expressions might affect Catholics in the long run. For example, if charismatics frequently listen to concerts by Michael W. Smith, and they hear the lyrics, say, “O Jesus, you are all I need, only you and me. No one betwen us…” (I am making these lyrics up for example purposes) then that Catholic charismatic may rely less on Jesus as He works through the sacraments, and emphasize a more indiviudalistic and sacrament-free approach to Jesus. Rather, I think that Catholic charismatics should listen to songs by groups like Seven Sorrows, which are completely Catholic in their lyrics.

I have heard at least two priests use the words “born again” to express their Baptism in the Spirit experience. This is a borrowing from Protestant terminology, and it is a clear contradiction of the Catholic belief that one is born in sacramental baptism.

Now, I only say this because things like this have happened before in history. During the convivencia, the time in Spain when Jews, Muslims and Christians lived side by side in relative peace, many Christians familiarized themselves with the beliefs of the Jews and Muslims, and several Christians came to the conclusion that each religion had an equally valid means of achieving salvation.

This is not the way I see things going right now, but I do see the potential danger in making Protestantism almost an equal (if not in formal declaration, in common consensus) with Catholicism.

Thanks for your post!

 

[rwoehmke]

You certainly have a good point. It is important in a Catholic Charismatic Prayer Group that the leaders subject themselves to obedience to their Pastor (assuming of course that he is not a dissident priest). Conversely the pastor or his delegate needs to keep his fingers on the pulse of the group. Leaders of the ministries like the music or teaching need to be selected on the basis of their loyalty to the Church and be discerning as to what music is used and what is taught. There are good books on this subject from Servant Books a Catholic Book Source. I have found that Ignatius Press and Servant to be reliably Catholic…

 

[puzzleannie]

as I understand it, the advice to test the spirits means for the Church to test the private revelations or prophecies or utterance in tounges etc. of its members before decding that they are indeed from God, rather than individuals testing their own experiences, or deciding for themselves whether the experience and teaching emerging from their own group are sound.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by woehmke:

There are good books on this subject from Servant Books a Catholic Book Source. I have found that Ignatius Press and Servant to be reliably Catholic…

I too have found Ignatius Press to be very Catholic, and for the most part it is good scholarship. I am not familiar with Servant though. I know that Paulist Press is an excellent source for Patristic works, but don’t know much outside of that.

Originally Quoted by puzzleannie:

as I understand it, the advice to test the spirits means for the Church to test the private revelations or prophecies or utterance in tounges etc. of its members before decding that they are indeed from God, rather than individuals testing their own experiences, or deciding for themselves whether the experience and teaching emerging from their own group are sound.

In general I agree with this statement. I would only add that, for the early Christians, the local Church was the Catholic Church in its totality; so when you say “Church,” I hope that you mean the local Eucharistic community and not exclusively the college of cardinals or simply the bishops, although these are certainly valuable in discerning spirits.

So, yes, the testing of spirits should be done, not to self-analyze but to make to ensure that the group, filled with the Holy Spirit, is not being intruded upon by malevolent spirits who try to lead people into error.

Thanks for the helpful post

 

[JCPhoenix]

I hope I can help you somewhat.

I’m also attending the Life in the Spirit seminar at my parish, and the priest is very holy, orthodox…and yes, VERY charismatic. The man has many gifts, healing being one of the greatest. (I have experienced his healing touch over the last few weeks). He also has the ability to read hearts…to what degree I don’t know and likely he doesn’t even remember what he says.

In any case, I do trust him very much, and that is key in Baptism in the Spirit…do you trust your priest? Do you trust that he will not lead anyone there astray because he himself is led by the Holy Spirit?

Our night started with his regular teaching, then he had a special Mass for us in the room we use–so there was some setup in order to convert the room to include a makeshift altar.

We all recieved communion, both species. Then he annointed and blessed the members of the Charismatic prayer group as they were to help. The “leader”, a layperson, explained to us to not be afraid or worry about what happened to anyone else. He said that some people fall, if if you feel yourself going, just go with it. Some people have no reaction, some people cry. Above all, he asked us to trust in the Holy Spirit and just be open to the gifts he wants to bring us. Maybe gifts we already have–this is referred to as a “reawakening”.

I didn’t really expect anything, and I was the 2nd to be annointed. The first person just went down. I was actually really nervious. Father annointed my forehead and I actually felt pushed somehow—just went backward, like with a loss of equilibrium. It wasn’t a HUGE knocked on my rear end feeling, and I wasn’t unconscious. I just felt peaceful, contemplative, and after awhile, just a quiet joy that I can’t explain.

After awhile I sat up, but I still didn’t really have any inclination to stand…I just sat there on the floor and prayed internally.

The Holy Spirit is very powerful, and honestly, I don’t really feel different, but they all caution not to expect to feel differently because this is not about feeling, but what the Holy Spirit will do in your life. Emotion is not a part of it.

I do still feel a sense of peace I’ve never had before, and still feel that joy. But it’s subtle.

Don’t worry about having to “discern” spirits–you’ll never get the chance to question anything until afterwards, and then you may no longer have any doubts.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by JCPhoenix:

In any case, I do trust him very much, and that is key in Baptism in the Spirit…do you trust your priest? Do you trust that he will not lead anyone there astray because he himself is led by the Holy Spirit?

You are very lucky!

There is no charismatic priest who is direct charge of my group’s Life in the Spirit seminars. There is a priest who oversees the group on a periodic basis, but he is out of the area and I have only met him once. I very much wish that there were a charismatic priest near me with whom I could talk. I would be much more comforted if the priest were well-grounded in the history of the Church, too.

The Holy Spirit is very powerful…

Haha…Bring it on, God!!! Booya!

 

[JCPhoenix]

Madaglan:

You are very lucky!

There is no charismatic priest who is direct charge of my group’s Life in the Spirit seminars. There is a priest who oversees the group on a periodic basis, but he is out of the area and I have only met him once. I very much wish that there were a charismatic priest near me with whom I could talk. I would be much more comforted if the priest were well-grounded in the history of the Church, too.

Haha…Bring it on, God!!! Booya!

OH, He will!

I guess in your case you would need to discern whether the people running your seminar are trustworthy. Are they orthodox? Have they so far taught anything contrary to Catholic teaching?

Do you have any questions from any of the teachings provided? If so you could ask me and I still have the handouts from our priest…maybe I can help?

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by JCPhoenix:

OH, He will!

I guess in your case you would need to discern whether the people running your seminar are trustworthy. Are they orthodox? Have they so far taught anything contrary to Catholic teaching?

Do you have any questions from any of the teachings provided? If so you could ask me and I still have the handouts from our priest…maybe I can help?

Overall, they are trustworthy. Sometimes I think that they are not aware enough of the dangers of syncreticism–mixing Protestant beliefs with Catholic beliefs. But luckily they are loyal and obedient to what the Church teaches.

I do have some questions, many of which I have received answers with which I still am not entirely satisfied. Perhaps you can help better answer them for me.

1. Why the Charismatic Renewal now? Where has it been all these past 2000 years?
2. Is it only a coincidence that the Pentecostal movement in the Protestant churches came before the Pentecostal movement in the Catholic Church?
3. Why do Charismatic Catholics seem to focus on Protestant spiritual works as well as those Catholic? For example, I have this book written by a Charismatic Jesuit, and in his daily meditations he quotes from, among other Protestants, Billy Graham and Martin Luther! Is it right that Catholics place Protestant spirituality and individuals in such high esteem? I’ve always thought that the Catholic attitude towards these individuals and their spiritualities is that they are best to be avoided, since they contain error.

Ok, that’s all for now

 

[JCPhoenix]

Wow.

I can’t answer those questions. My class is more like an introduction to the Holy Spirit, not the CCR.

Many people who attend this seminar never become “Charismatics” as in the commonly understood term–I may not, either.

Check out the Charismatic Q&A forum with those questions–they may have an actual answer. God Bless!