Thanksgiving dinner with wife's sister

[EasterJoy]

In your shoes, I think I’d go to my husband and say, “we’re in the situation we’re in. Let’s back up, list some pros and cons, and decide what we want to do together.”

For instance, your wife might be fine with you hanging around just long enough to help her with the work of preparation, say a brotherly “hello” to her sister, package up some fixings to take with you to cook for your brother at his house, and fly down the highway. Pros: you have spent at least part of the day with her, including the work, you have not shunned her or her sister, you will have escaped the hour of enforced dinner conversation with your SIL that your wife never asked you about, her sister is not likely to take any jabs at Christianity without you there to hear them (which means the children and your wife won’t have to squirm through this exchange), and your brother does not have to spend the first Thanksgiving after his wife died alone. Cons: You will be cutting out on the meal, your wife and children won’t have you there the entire day, your SIL might figure out how to take offense, anyway, and you will be “utterly alone while you watch two NFL games, cook dinner for your brother and yourself until he gets home” (OK, depending on what you like, maybe that last one goes in the “pro” column. If you start your driving at the end of the Eagles-Lions game, you can catch the end of the Panthers-Cowboys game while you get dinner cooking and maybe watch Bears-Packers with your brother, if he likes football at all).

Idea Two: You stay home and your wife promises to caution her sister that this is a day of truce and she will not tolerate any religious jabs from either her sister or her husband, period, and that the topic of religion shall be confined to expressions of gratitude, peace, and gracious mutual tolerance, as befits the holiday. (Saying she’s warned you and not just her sister is something you would allow so her sister cannot defensively claim that she is being unfairly singled out as being the troublemaker.) If you do this, though, try to think of something to do for your brother. Call him and chat when he gets home…something. Thanksgiving is a day when you want to know your family cares about you.

IOW, you can look at your list of likes and dislikes, and goals, compare it to your wife’s list of likes and dislikes, and goals, and perhaps find a compromise that you can both live with, even if neither of you loves it entirely. Then throw out some ideas to think about.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Go to your brother’s. It sounds like you won’t enjoy Thanksgiving dinner at home with your sister-in-law there. You wife will have plenty of company, whereas your brother will not. Neither will you if you stay at home. If your wife loves you, and I assume she does, she will understand. She might even be grateful because there will be no friction between you and her sister. So, go to your brother’s and everyone will have a nice day.

Yes, your wife should have consulted with you. She can see her sister another time. Thanksgiving only comes once a year. Your feelings need to be considered as well. Since your brother is grieving, spend the day with him. You could go another day, but really, it wouldn’t be Thanksgiving.

Ask yourself who needs your presence more? Clearly, your brother. Go there.

 

[Xantippe]

That’s very true. If the brother is working a long day, that’s totally doable. A lot of families have Thanksgiving dinner 2ish, so the OP could conceivably eat two (!) Thanksgiving dinners.

In your shoes, I think I’d go to my husband and say, “we’re in the situation we’re in. Let’s back up, list some pros and cons, and decide what we want to do together.”

For instance, your wife might be fine with you hanging around just long enough to help her with the work of preparation, say a brotherly “hello” to her sister, package up some fixings to take with you to cook for your brother at his house, and fly down the highway. Pros: you have spent at least part of the day with her, including the work, you have not shunned her or her sister, you will have escaped the hour of enforced dinner conversation with your SIL that your wife never asked you about, her sister is not likely to take any jabs at Christianity without you there to hear them (which means the children and your wife won’t have to squirm through this exchange), and your brother does not have to spend the first Thanksgiving after his wife died alone. Cons: You will be cutting out on the meal, your wife and children won’t have you there the entire day, your SIL might figure out how to take offense, anyway, and you will be “utterly alone while you watch two NFL games, cook dinner for your brother and yourself until he gets home” (OK, depending on what you like, maybe that last one goes in the “pro” column. If you start your driving at the end of the Eagles-Lions game, you can catch the end of the Panthers-Cowboys game while you get dinner cooking and maybe watch Bears-Packers with your brother, if he likes football at all).

Idea Two: You stay home and your wife promises to caution her sister that this is a day of truce and she will not tolerate any religious jabs from either her sister or her husband, period, and that the topic of religion shall be confined to expressions of gratitude, peace, and gracious mutual tolerance, as befits the holiday. (Saying she’s warned you and not just her sister is something you would allow so her sister cannot defensively claim that she is being unfairly singled out as being the troublemaker.) If you do this, though, try to think of something to do for your brother. Call him and chat when he gets home…something. Thanksgiving is a day when you want to know your family cares about you.

IOW, you can look at your list of likes and dislikes, and goals, compare it to your wife’s list of likes and dislikes, and goals, and perhaps find a compromise that you can both live with, even if neither of you loves it entirely. Then throw out some ideas to think about.

 

[Mardi_M]

In internet exchanges mostly we get one honest side of the story, but we don’t always get the other side, not willfully on the part of the poster, but just because the poster is speaking from his/her own viewpoint and mental framework. It doesn’t necessarily convey the whole story.

I wonder, when wives don’t tell the husband things before they are arranged, it is sometimes self-defense.
The wife knows the husband will oppose it and make a fuss. I know three wives personally who do the same thing because it’s hopeless trying to discuss it, there will be opposition and no capitulation, but if it’s put into place, he has to go some way into accepting it. She has to count on that or be without her family on Thanksgiving, unlike other families who get to be together. She’s missed out on her own home lived as an independent family, and it’s sad if she can’t look forward to having her siblings’ family with her.

From the strength of your objection as a specific issue this year it might appear that she has been without her family at Thanksgiving most o or some of the time.
Maybe she does deserve some empathy? It’s not her sister’s religion that matters to her, it’s her sister and family.

It’s very natural she’d want her sister and nephews/nieces present at Thanksgiving. It will always be her mother-in-law’s property, and maybe the husband is closer in some ways to his mother? however, she will always be at a disadvantage not having her own unencumbered place.
Caring for her mother was going to be a problem as she has nothing of her own to offer her mother.

The fear of telling the truth or all the truth often goes with a husband who is set in his ways and ideas and rules the roost, I’m not saying you do! but I recognize the symptom I’ve seen in various marriages. There is a fear, fear of the upset that will follow if the husband objects, that he will be intractable no matter what the wife says or pleads …fear of missing out on things dear and precious. The husband will get most his way, and the only way around it is to not tell all the truth, for some wives.

I agree that your wife should say to her sister and her family, leave religion out of the visit, and both should, not rub each others’ noses in their beliefs, but you have no children of your own to be harmed in any case, you are an adult, so perhaps feelings could be put aside in love of your wife, who is your first human consideration. If your wife has the respect for you to ask that religion of any kind be left unhinted at and undiscussed, then that is respect for you as well as for your wife.

The suggestion made that you arrange Thanksgiving with your brother on another day is a good one perhaps. Your brother will be tired from working, and he will have your earlier or later sibling celebration to enjoy, unless also he can join the mothers and you and your wife at your mother’s home where you have dwelt all these years on another close date …is that possible?

It’s possible that your wife is quite as unreasonable as one might assume. She has her story which we’re not privy to, but the above thoughts have occurred to me on your behalf, so please forgive if they are incorrect or upsetting in any way.

Kindly,
Mardi

 

[Don_Ruggero]

/…/. My wife invited her sister, husband and 3 kids for Thanksgiving. Her sister practices Paganism and Witchcraft. /…/when she learned most Christians oppose gay marriage she became very hostile to Christianity and is very vocal about it; I’m sure there will be remarks about how evil Christianity is while at our home. As a result, I want to have Thanksgiving dinner with my brother who lives 100 miles away after he gets home from work. /…/My wife and I will be apart on Thanksgiving; she will be very hurt but I’m not comfortable having her sister in my home and ridicule my beliefs.I’ve discussed this with my wife and she says that’s her sister and has no problem with it.My brother lost his wife last July and will be alone but he works long hours and our time together will be short. My question is should I suck it up and deal with my wife’s sister or just get out for the day and let things fall as they will? /…/ [Edited for length]

I’ve read all your posts. I note some suggestions seem to lack important points you make. This must be taken in account in assessing the suggestions.The advice I give is less as priest with theology but age & years of pastoral work and a dash of practical psychology…

1. You’re married with no children.who would be left unshielded should you not be at this event.
2. A key issue is your brother’s wife is dead less than 4 months. That’s a deep and recent trauma. From experience, this is a loss felt for years.

The first special occasions after a loss (especially if it was untimely, unforeseen, and/or violent) are worse than the person typically imagines. The rituals of the previous years are gone with nothing to replace them. One is left with memories made more painful because the person is gone.

Suggesting doing something on another date is ineffective as it fails to address the fact that the day itself, with its rituals and routines, will cause maximum emotional upset.

It’s worse if he’s alone in his grief and compounded if he’s using ineffective coping mechanisms, such as overwork, rather than confronting and working through the stages of grief in a healthy manner with a therapist, other professional or support group. His situation is a real priority.

1. Advice is hard to give when behaviours are undefined & embrace a spectrum. I can understand the wish for no mention of paganism or wicca since these really can introduce into a home spiritual issues…by things said, rituals done or objects left. These concerns aside, how does she manifest hostility to Christianity/support for same sex marriage? The mere mention of them is one thing. Yelling, screaming, cursing is another. Is her tone calm and dispassionate at all? Vitriol, invective, rage and language that is vulgar, blasphemy or offensive is unsupportable.

IF you are receiving verbal abuse from your sister-in-law and/or her husband and/or their children and/or the mother-in-law – and your wife is either neutral or joining in this, then you need remove yourself. You & your wife would need counseling for communication within marriage and how a couple creates boundaries, mutually supported & affirmed, about acceptable behavior by parties inside & outside the marital relationship.

I would like to ask you:
Your wife did this invite without consulting you, seemingly knowing there is significant conflict caused by her sister’s abandonment of Christianity, her paganism, and same sex marriage support. Did she do this knowing an effort to mediate an invitation would fail on your side? (Is it passive aggressive?) How aware is she of her sister’s actual belligerence? Does she understand it? I ask this since you say:I’ve discussed this with my wife and she says that’s her sister and has no problem with it…which I read as she has no problem with her sister being abusive to you in what she says. (Is this yelling and screaming or is it relentlessly being critical and argumentative in conversation?)

Your wife received her mother into your home for what was to be two weeks but has been there for years undiscussed. Similarly, your mother has lived with you for years. It seems far reaching decisions are made without intentionality on the part of all concerned. Is this because you are all open to the events of Providence or is there an active avoidance of reaching consensus through a concerted and sincere effort to discern the Will of the Lord and what various parties composing this multigenerational family can accommodate with a minimum of strain and stress?

An argument can be made by your wife you’re making an independent decision to walk away from the family dinner to leave her & her family behind. Of course, you can argue you’re going to care for your recently widowed brother for whom SHE failed to make provision when she made her plans. In other words, there is a case that both of you were inattentive to how the other may feel their sibling needed to be involved. But, again, since your brother is the one who is alone and who just lost his wife, his crisis should be given greater weight – all else being equal.

How would your absence impact your mother? Would your wife & her relatives include her or would they exclude her? Should she be with you as you help your brother./her other son?

Your wife is motivated by having her sister, brother-in-law and nephews/nieces together. But what about your brother? He is also her brother-in-law, as your brother. Her husband’s brother is alone because his wife has died 4 months ago. HE should be the focus of this holiday gathering, assuming your wife’s family has had no comparable trauma. Are there issues for her in his regard like you for her sister? Or is she being unreasonable? .

Maybe seek a resolution in staying home for a brief time & then go to your brother? A compromise? For good health, you both need to address the underlying evident dysfunction, In my opinion.

 

[Mardi_M]

We are blessed to have a priest and man who is able to share some deeper perceptions and to have courage and insight to ask questions that others of us may not have seen, and come to conclusions that some of us stumble around.

We are blessed to have you active in these forums Father. May God continue to bless us through you and may God continue to bless you.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

We are blessed to have a priest and man who is able to share some deeper perceptions and to have courage and insight to ask questions that others of us may not have seen, and come to conclusions that some of us stumble around.

We are blessed to have you active in these forums Father. May God continue to bless us through you and may God continue to bless you.

I think you are much much too kind and too generous.

Oh dear. I am a priest who was by and large an academic. I had studied and know psychology, a field I loved and which I devoted myself to a long time ago, but it is now in truth more from the practical and pastoral side – less as a counselor and surely not the clinical side of being a clinician or therapist.

I think the posts all contributed positive thoughts. The original poster can hopefully use them to clarify his own thoughts and discern a path ahead.

I think some, in their reading, passed over details he wrote that really are critical – the brother who is alone after his wife passed away a mere four months ago and is attempting to cope by working very long hours is a red flag, honestly. I have lost so much of my family across the decades and each loss utterly changes you…especially how the holidays affect you.

This soul then has legitimate needs and claims on his brother although he has a mother and the claims of a sibling must be balanced against other duties and obligations.

A great challenge here, frankly, is that we have some insights…which we tend to view through the lens of our own perceptions and experiences. This is natural but maybe counter-productive for this gentleman. The man knows in his inner heart all the circumstances in their nuances through and through.

May the Lord’s grace, light, peace and strength help this man to find what God is inviting him to do in this situation and what is in the best interest of all concerned.

Let us all pray for all these people. May the Lord touch each of them, according to their needs.,by His love and by His grace.

 

[LighthouseRon]

Thank you, Father, for your thoughts. Let me answer a couple of questions. I don’t expect yelling, screaming, or anything like that. It would be more like consistent mocking and laughing along the lines of “How can you be so stupid.”. The other is if I go to my brother’s Mom would likely go with me. I wouldn’t want to leave her in the situation unless she wanted to stay.

The decision to have my mom live with us was discussed at length before my wife and I got married to try to minimize the impact. There was no discussion about her mom except my wife saying that someday we might need to take her mom in and I understand that. It’s difficult for me to accept this because she’s healthy and doesn’t need to be taken care of. She simply enjoys the benefits of staying here with very little contribution on her part. I think what happened is my wife’s mom wanted Thanksgiving with her other daughter so she talked my wife into it. As I said before, I’m probably not looking at this objectively.

Once again, thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Mardi_M]

As you quietly explain things especially in this post, following Father’s wise post, explaining that your mother-in-law is healthy and doesn’t need special care
but lives in your mother’s house anyway, where she was established permantently by manipulation rather than discussion, while also contributing very little,
it is not only you that this is unfair towards,
but even especially towards your mother, who certainly should have been consulted regarding someone unrelated to her moving permanently into her house.

Ron, I apologize for the suggestion in my first response that you might be controlling and therefore your wife, fearful, it seems rather that you don’t have much control over things that you should, that your are probably outnumbered by wife and mother-in-law, eg in the Thanksgiving issue but possibly in many things.

Your wife and mother-in-law, having already colluded in a huge way by installing your mother-in-law in the house on your mother’s property seven years ago under the pretense of a brief visit, from choice not necessity, perhaps collude in other ways. If so, it must be very hard for you sometimes. It could also certainly would make it difficult to have an equal balanced marriage.

It might appear that you require the qualities of a saint. May God grant whatever graces you need, and that the marriage requires to be healthy.

I now think that my suggestion that your wife may have fear is mistaken, and might have been very unjust, though God only knows if your wife’s choices do have some basis in perhaps resentment, perhaps entitlement, because she doesn’t have a home of her own, God only knows,
however it must be extremely difficult to have a marriage where two extra people have daily sway year after year. It may also be very difficult for your mother, having a long-term uninvited resident in her home.

I hope God will bless and help in your household.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father thank you so much! Your advice was spot-on. You mentioned that some suggestions here lacked important points from the original post, I can tell you that in my suggestion I didn’t even mention the grieving brother but that was deliberate on my part, perhaps a mistake. The marriage seems to be clearly lacking in the most basic of communication and so I wanted to encourage that.

/…/

How wonderful that you focused on the grieving brother. Very important for all involved to get over whatever is bothering them and comfort the grieving ones.

Your assessment of my effort to make a contribution is very kind. Thank you.

I understood that the original poster may or may not have seen the brother’s situation as a crisis. Indeed, may be it isn’t. I don’t know. A real drawback to these forum is that we only have a minimum of very select information upon which to base any advice.

If the brother’s wife died after a prolonged illness and at an advanced age (relatively speaking) that is a very different circumstance from a young woman whose life was tragically and instantly lost in an accident, for example. The reaction of grief varies by circumstance and by person and by how they are healing from the loss.

It just seems to me that, whatever the circumstances, this situation calls for a maximum of delicate attention to the brother by the whole family. It is only four months. One can speak of celebrating a holiday on another day and that is perfectly legitimate in most circumstance. But, regarding the freshly grieved, it can be all but impossible to convey to those who have not experienced this the devastation and loss they feel on the first birthday. Christmas, Thanksgiving, and the anniversary of the death. Those first memorable occasions without their spouse, sibling or parent! The actual day can be very raw and something one can struggle just to get through.

LighthouseRon…two points. I made the assumption your mother might not go since you did not mention the possibility and since you indicated it would involve travel at unusual hours. I thought perhaps it was not possible for her to travel in such circumstance. I am glad it is not so. If she could go, I can only imagine it would a comfort both for you and for her other son and for her.

Second point: the situation you describe still admits of a variety of scenarios that are beyond the scope of what we can know or you need describe.

I have seen it where the offending person is content to express their mind and then drop it. That is unpleasant but can be shrugged off, if still not nice. I have seen…I think it’s called “ribbing” their victim…where the barbs just keep coming. It is impolite but something that can be endured, if unpleasant and tedious. When the person tenaciously clings to this behaviour, it becomes less and less tolerable.

Hopefully, the person would eventually drop it or the comments would be only occasional, but I could not predicate my advice on that prospect. I sought to address the range of undesired behaviour to help you asses what you really confront and what is a proper reaction. Also, the coping skills of each person to deflect this sort of behaviour varies and that has to be taken into account.

I have seen it go the spectrum to outright mocking and insults and even saying blasphemy in an effort to mock and to shock the person. This is more the case of someone who is truly hostile to Christianity. But then you used that language for your sister-in-law. If her expression of revulsion at the Faith is of that magnitude and she is unbridled in spite of love for her sister and mother, then I can see how a situation would be truly volatile. I have encountered pagans who are passionate issues activists and who would miss no opportunity to launch into a full throated assault on the Church, wherever it can happen. Please God, that is not your sister-in-law.

With behavior such as that, and following repeated efforts to change the subject or to say that the comments need to stop – but won’t – then it can reach the point where the event allowing the behaviour simply has to be terminated. IF and I say IF that were the situation, one wisely tries to prevent such situations at the holidays since it can antagonize, cause tremendous wounds, incite ill will, and further damage frayed relationships.

I could read your comments and come away with this scenario as easily as I could read it as the sister-in-law will just say cutting remarks and unkind things that one could brush aside – and rather everything in between.

Only you know the behaviour patterns of these individuals and how they interact together and how bad the behaviour becomes – or reasonably could be foreseen to become.

I cannot say what the effect would be for the marriage if you decide not to attend. I will say, all else being equal, that I do not see how anyone could fault you and your mother for doing anything and everything circumstances permit to make this Thanksgiving, the first for your brother without his wife, less painful. If that has the effect of removing both of you from an unpleasant circumstance…well, God is good.

Perhaps you could be present briefly as it begins, long enough to greet the various people, and explain that you and your mother need to be with your grieving brother who is all alone and who could not make the trip. I will venture to say that if people could be so heartless as to fault you for such an act of charity, they are people whose company is better not kept anyway. Or at least so it would be for me.

God bless you. I will pray for you and all your family and for this difficult situation.