The 7 Churches of Rev

[Fr_Ambrose]

[The quartodecimens, of whom your Orthodox churches supported

You may need to brush up your history of the interminable problems which swirled around the dating of Pascha. It makes very little sense to say that the Orthodox supported the Quartodecimans.

Historical fact 1: There was NO Orthodox Church at that time, and nor was there a Roman Catholic Church. So it is a major anachronism to say that the “Orthodox” supported the Quartodecimans.

Historical fact 2: Others beside Polycrates refused to change. Saint Polycarp also refused to change their traditional way of dating Easter. He visited Rome and discussed it with the bishop of Rome and he still never changed it.

Historical fact 3: Saint Irenaeus of Lyons argued with Pope Victor and told him to leave the “Quartodecimans” in peace.

So I suppose that you see Saint Polycarp and Saint Irenaeus as somehow “Orthodox” Church Fathers and not “Catholic” ones because they supported the Quartodecimans?

But of course the Quartodeciman controversy ceased in the Church with the decisions of the Council of Nicea in 313 AD about the computation of Pascha. It lingered on in a few places for another century but most Churches accepted the need for unity on the matter and they observed the Nicene Paschal dating -except of course for the Irish and the British who went on using their own older system up to the end of the 7th century. It’s interesting that what the Irish and British were following was in fact an older system which they had learnt from Rome but Rome had discarded it. They themselves believed, as did the Church of Ephesus, etc., that they were using the system bequeathed by Saint John.

where should I give more credibilty to? To the Bishop whose decision stands, or to the Bishop whose decision failed?
Thal59

The point is not whose decision failed. And in this case even the Pope’s decision failed later when Nicea mandated a system for Easter which did away with the existing Roman system as well. But the point is that the Church at large did not accept that the Bishop of Rome had the right to interfere in their Churches and make decisions for them.
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[vern_humphrey]

Fr Ambrose:

But of course the Quartodeciman controversy ceased in the Church with the decisions of the Council of Nicea in 313 AD about the computation of Pascha. .

The Council of Nicea was in 313?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

vern humphrey:

The Council of Nicea was in 313?

Sorry, writing too fast.

The year 313 saw the promulgation of the Edict of Milan by which Saint Constantine declared peace for the Christians in the Empire. NIcea was a few years later in 325.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Fr Ambrose:

Sorry, writing too fast.

The year 313 saw the promulgation of the Edict of Milan by which Saint Constantine declared peace for the Christians in the Empire. NIcea was a few years later in 325.

You had me worried there!

 

[Mathetes007]

cloudy56day:

My question is, how do you reconcile the claims of the early church being Catholic, with the evidence of theological drift in Revelation? How does the RCC view the 7 churches of Rev.?

Sorry Dave, sometimes these posts tend to go off topic. Here are a few suggestions to consider:

First, historically speaking, the rebukes and praises addressed to these seven churches are only to a sector of the Church in Asia and not the entire Church (Revelation 1:4). This is its primary meaning and cannot be overlooked. We know that the Church at this time existed in many cities of the then known world. This being the case, if John intended to say that there was a universal apostasy, why didn’t he address the Church in it’s entirety as opposed to selecting 7 churches in Asia? Your brother is reading into the text what is not there (eisegesis). From the context, you cannot derive a universal apostasy from these passages.

Secondly, your brother seems to only be taking into consideration Christ’s rebukes for allowing and tolerating heretical teachings (i.e. teaching of Balaam, prophecies of Jezebel, the deep things of Satan, etc.) by these Asian churches. He does not take into account that, although Christ rebukes several of the churches because of their lack of works, Christ also praises some of these churches for keeping the Apostolic teachings free of corruption (Revelation 2:2, 6; 3:8, 10).

Thirdly, even the Apostles were not free of this problem. For example, Paul found it necessary to rebuke Peter, the first Pope, for being a hypocrite (Galatians 2:11-13). He was not practicing what he preached. This did not mean that Peter was teaching heresy. On the contrary, it plainly demonstrated that Peter taught without error. However, he was not practicing his own teaching, ergo hypocrisy.

Fourthly, we know that individual members at all levels of the Church can become apostates. It started with Judas Iscariot and his betrayal of the ages. Christ made it clear that there would be bad members in the Church along side the good members (Matthew 13:24-30; see also Matt. 13:1-23, 47; 25:1-12; John 6:70-71; Acts 5:1-11; 20:28-30; 1 Cor 1:2; 3:1-4; 5; 1 Tim 1:5-7; 2 Tim 2:20; Heb 6:4-6; 2 Peter 2:1-3, 19-22). Paul likewise states, “For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you” (1 Cor 11:19). “Theological drifts” can be introduced to the laity of the Church by false teachers but such doctrines will not become dogma due to the promises of Christ (Matthew 16:18-19). We can gather therefore that the Church will not be free of bad members attempting to introduce another gospel (Galatians 1:6-9) until Christ returns to separate the wheat from the weeds.

The historical conditions of the seven churches in Asia (7 represents totality, complete, universal) symbolically represent the condition of the universal Church at the end of time when the Lord returns again. That is why the rest of Revelation shows the coming tribulations and judgment. Those who persevere will receive the crown of glory. In short, this reveals the divine and human aspect of the Church. Despite man’s shortcomings, we can pull through only with Christ’s help.

 

[cloudy56day]

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate them. Sorry I haven’t repsonded sooner, been out of town and just now had a chance to read them. You’ve given me some things to think about and share with my brother.

…hoping to be in Rome soon!
-David

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

cloudy56day:

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate them. Sorry I haven’t repsonded sooner, been out of town and just now had a chance to read them. You’ve given me some things to think about and share with my brother.

…hoping to be in Rome soon!
-David

Move to Smyrna (Izmir) -nice climate- and join the only surviving Church from the Book of Revelation.

Turkey is about to join the EU, so you should be safe from uprisings and martyrdom