The act of creation impossible unless God does not have free will

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bahman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Bahman

Guest
We agree that God created the universe by His Divine act. We believe that God could decide about the act of creation. This requires decision before act. This is however problematic since we believe that God in timeless state where there is no before and after. This means that we have to give up either the decision or the act of creation. We exist hence we cannot give up the act of creation so we are left with one option which is that God dose not have free will. This however define God as a being who only knows and act.

What do you think?
 
One of God’s eternal attributes is ‘The Creator’. Does it make sense then that there was ever a point ‘in time’ that God was not creating? God was always breathing and sustaining a creation. Creation is certainly an act of will on God’s part but the act has no beginning and end. Creation is eternally depending on God for its life and existence.
 
He is eternal and outside of time, yes. His choice to create and the act of creation itself are therefore simultaneous. It’s the same thing.

It’s like… God, man.
 
noorez said:
One of God’s eternal attributes is ‘The Creator’. Does it make sense then that there was ever a point ‘in time’ that God was not creating? God was always breathing and sustaining a creation. Creation is certainly an act of will on God’s part but the act has no beginning and end. Creation is eternally depending on God for its life and existence.
Click to expand...
Were this a true opinion that would mean some form of creation would be as eternal as God and the creators eternal nature would be contingent upon that which was created existing eternally with the creator making its nature indistinguishable from that of the Creator which by definition of what created means is impossible. At some point the Creator must exist prior to any creation.
 
Garyjohn2 said:
He is eternal and outside of time, yes. His choice to create and the act of creation itself are therefore simultaneous. It’s the same thing.

It’s like… God, man.
Click to expand...
God may very well be outside of time…whatever that might mean…but time itself is a part of creation contingent upon the creative act. I see no reason why we should equate the free will decision made by god to create something, which was done outside of time as well, with the creations realization. Even simultaneity implies happening within time. For this to happen time would already have to exist. This would make the creative act happen within time instead of being its origin.
 
Bahman said:
We agree that God created the universe by His Divine act. We believe that God could decide about the act of creation. This requires decision before act. This is however problematic since we believe that God in timeless state where there is no before and after. This means that we have to give up either the decision or the act of creation. We exist hence we cannot give up the act of creation so we are left with one option which is that God dose not have free will. This however define God as a being who only knows and act.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I think you are making an unwarranted assumption about God.
 
Bahman said:
This requires decision before act.
Click to expand...
Broaden your mind.

What comes first, mathematics or music? Physics, or metaphysics? Etc. This demonstrates the principle of logical antecedence and dependence without temporal causation.

Also, God does not “decide,” as if He were trying to make up His mind.
 
noorez said:
One of God’s eternal attributes is ‘The Creator’. Does it make sense then that there was ever a point ‘in time’ that God was not creating? God was always breathing and sustaining a creation. Creation is certainly an act of will on God’s part but the act has no beginning and end. Creation is eternally depending on God for its life and existence.
Click to expand...
I know all these claims. You didn’t really offers anything against or favour of OP.
 
Garyjohn2 said:
He is eternal and outside of time, yes. His choice to create and the act of creation itself are therefore simultaneous. It’s the same thing.

It’s like… God, man.
Click to expand...
The decision and act of creation cannot lay at the same eternal point because act is always followed by decision. In another world we have know what we want to do before any act.
 
e_c said:
Broaden your mind.
Click to expand...
I am trying.
e_c said:
What comes first, mathematics or music? Physics, or metaphysics? Etc. This demonstrates the principle of logical antecedence and dependence without temporal causation.
Click to expand...
Act always follows by decision. We know it by fact. This is of course temporal model. So the problem persist to exist until you provide a better model for God.
e_c said:
Also, God does not “decide,” as if He were trying to make up His mind.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say so. Process of decision means that we are trying to make up our minds. This means that God does not decide because he doesn’t need to make up His Mind. So we are back to what is claimed in OP which is that God does not have any free will.
 
Bahman said:
We agree that God created the universe by His Divine act. We believe that God could decide about the act of creation. This requires decision before act. This is however problematic since we believe that God in timeless state where there is no before and after. This means that we have to give up either the decision or the act of creation. We exist hence we cannot give up the act of creation so we are left with one option which is that God dose not have free will. This however define God as a being who only knows and act.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
Your assumption is that God needs time to make a decision. Whereas the act of Creation is his will.
 
If only it were true that I knew what I don’t know then at least I’d know something.
Please be kind to this humble stranger and pray tell me how might free will arise in creation from a Creator who has none itself?
 
Bahman said:
We agree that God created the universe by His Divine act. We believe that God could decide about the act of creation. This requires decision before act. This is however problematic since we believe that God in timeless state where there is no before and after. This means that we have to give up either the decision or the act of creation. We exist hence we cannot give up the act of creation so we are left with one option which is that God dose not have free will. This however define God as a being who only knows and act.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
We can not comprehend timelessness. Just because we can not understand timelessness doesn’t mean that God can’t. Even brilliant people such as Einstein do not fully grasp what time and space are much less any concept of timelessness. That is why God is God and we are not.

No matter how hard we try, we are simply not going to be able to tuck God safely in the little boxes of our minds.
 
The problem is in claiming God to be timeless, changeless, and utterly with a potential of absolutely zero, we cannot have a creation ex nihilo. Nor could we have God become that which has itself a beginning, namely “a man”. Both of which require potential.
 
HelenRose said:
We can not comprehend timelessness. Just because we can not understand timelessness doesn’t mean that God can’t. Even brilliant people such as Einstein do not fully grasp what time and space are much less any concept of timelessness. That is why God is God and we are not.

No matter how hard we try, we are simply not going to be able to tuck God safely in the little boxes of our minds.
Click to expand...
Can we apply to God anything we cannot ourselves understand in any meaningful way? We would be just as well off not attributing anything to God since we have no conception of what it would mean as it applies to the divine. Yet we apply many attributes to God as if they were comprehensible and then use them to formulate conceptions of God and predicate our actions based on these conceptions.
 
e_c said:
Broaden your mind.

What comes first, mathematics or music? Physics, or metaphysics? Etc. This demonstrates the principle of logical antecedence and dependence without temporal causation.

Also, God does not “decide,” as if He were trying to make up His mind.
Click to expand...
What does it mean to say that God has a mind? Apparently he has no free will, no ability to decide, and no potential to decide anything if he wanted to. We’ve apparently reduced God to an ineffable blob of static eternity and creation having past, present, and future being created at same time from its perspective, to a storybook tale full of deluded characters believing they actually have potential and free will. What an absurd joke this all seems.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top