The Apocrypha: The many errors

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dparker said:
I am new here and admit I know absolutely nothing about the Deuterocanonical Books. I knew the Catholic bible had additional books, but I never even thought to research why. Pretty shallow now that I think about it…

Anyway…your statement pricked my heart. If Jesus and the Apostles quoted from them, how could anyone not think they should be “scripture”.

Where exactly did they quote from these books? Would anyone mind referring me to the incidents? I think this is a critical point.
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MARGINAL REFERENCES TO THE APOCRYHA DELETED
The total number of references to the Apocrypha in the margins of the Old and New Testaments of the King James version as printed in 1611 is 113. Of this number, 102 are in the Old Testament, and 11 in the New. The New Testament passages with references to the Apocrypha are as follows:

Mat 6:7 Ecclesiasticus 7:14
Mat 23:37 2 Esdras 1:30
Mat 27:43 Wisdom 2:15-16
Luke 6:31 Tobit 4:15
Luke 14:13 Tobit 4:7
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
Rom 9:21 Wisdom 15:7
Rom 11:34 Wisdom 9:13
2 Cor 9:7 Ecclesiasticus 35:9
Heb 1:3 Wisdom 7:26
Heb 11:35 2 Maccabees 7

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.HTM
apostate.com/religion/bible-versions.html
 
dosdog said:
MARGINAL REFERENCES TO THE APOCRYHA DELETED
The total number of references to the Apocrypha in the margins of the Old and New Testaments of the King James version as printed in 1611 is 113. Of this number, 102 are in the Old Testament, and 11 in the New. The New Testament passages with references to the Apocrypha are as follows:

Mat 6:7 Ecclesiasticus 7:14
Mat 23:37 2 Esdras 1:30
Mat 27:43 Wisdom 2:15-16
Luke 6:31 Tobit 4:15
Luke 14:13 Tobit 4:7
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
Rom 9:21 Wisdom 15:7
Rom 11:34 Wisdom 9:13
2 Cor 9:7 Ecclesiasticus 35:9
Heb 1:3 Wisdom 7:26
Heb 11:35 2 Maccabees 7

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.HTM
apostate.com/religion/bible-versions.html
Click to expand...
Okay…please bear with my ignorance…I’ve looked these up…

Mat 6:7: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
Ecclesiasticus 7:14: Be not willing to make any manner of lie: for the custom thereof is not good.

I honestly don’t see Christ quoting or referring to Ecc 7:14 at all. ???

Mat 23:37: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
2 Esdras 1:30: I gathered you as a hen gathers her brood under her wings. But now, what shall I do to you? I will cast you out from my presence.

Hmm…some similar wording, but dose not appear to be quoting 2 Esdras.

Mat 27:43: “HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
Wisdom 2:15-16: the very sight of him is a burden to us,
because his manner of life is unlike that of others,
and his ways are strange.
[16] We are considered by him as something base,
and he avoids our ways as unclean;
he calls the last end of the righteous happy,
and boasts that God is his father.

I assume this is Wisdom of Solomon. I couldn’t find a book called “Wisdom”. Sorry…I don’t see a quote here either.

*Luke 6:31: “Treat others the same way you want them to treat you".
Tobit 4:15: And what you hate, do not do to any one. Do not drink wine to excess or let drunkenness go with you on your way.
*
Again…some similar meanings, and I can understand a cross reference, but where is the quote?

Luke 14:13: “But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,14 and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Tobit 4:7: Give alms from your possessions to all who live uprightly, and do not let your eye begrudge the gift when you make it. Do not turn your face away from any poor man, and the face of God will not be turned away from you.

Now I’m really getting confused. Certainly no quote there…

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John 10:22: At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
1 Maccabees 4:59: Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with gladness and joy for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Chislev.

This one really stumps me…

*Rom 9:21: Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Wisdom 15:7: For when a potter kneads the soft earth and laboriously molds each vessel for our service, he fashions out of the same clay both the vessels that serve clean uses and those for contrary uses, making all in like manner; but which shall be the use of each of these the worker in clay decides.
*
Okay…once again, a similar analogy, but certainly not a quote.

*Rom 11:34: For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Wisdom 9:13: For what man can learn the counsel of God?
Or who can discern what the Lord wills?
*
Now this is close enough to might be a quote, but it’s certainly hard to tell. I’d be surprised if this quote isn’t elsewhere in the OT as well.

*2 Cor 9:7: Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Ecclesiasticus 35:9: The sacrifice of the just is acceptable, and the Lord will not forget the memorial thereof. *

Certainly not a quote here either…

Heb 1:3: And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Wisdom 7:26: For she is a reflection of eternal light,
a spotless mirror of the working of God,
and an image of his goodness.

Not here either…

Heb 11:35: Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
2 Maccabees 7: It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and cords, to partake of unlawful swine’s flesh. [2] One of them, acting as their spokesman, said, “What do you intend to ask and learn from us? For we are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our fathers.”[3] The king fell into a rage, and gave orders that pans and caldrons be heated…( continues telling a real tragedy)

Perhaps an example of what Heb 11:35f MAY be referring to…but certainly not a quote.

I’m dissapointed. I had felt that if Christ or the Apostles had indeed quoted these “other” books, then that should serve to convince any reasonable person.

However, I just don’t see it. Please point out what I am missing. Were there perhaps typo errors and I went to the wrong verses?
 
Have you taken into account the Septuagint Translation of Isaiah 7:14 being use in Matthew 1:24.

The original Hebrew of Isaiah states the following:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman* shall conceive and bear* a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el.*

While the Septuagint Translation of Isaiah 7:14 states,

Behold, a virgin* shall conceive and bear* a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el.*

Matthew use the Greek instead of the Hebrew.

“Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel” Matthew 1:23

Note the parallel in Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree; Luke 1:52

and Compare that with Sirach 10:14

14 The Lord has cast down the thrones of rulers,

and has seated the* lowly in their place*

Though these passage do not the exact words, the similarities of the passage are uncanny.
 
dparker said:
Okay…please bear with my ignorance…I’ve looked these up…

*Mat 6:7: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
Ecclesiasticus 7:14:
14 Be not willing to make any manner of lie: for the custom thereof is not good. 15 Be not full of words in a multitude of ancients, and repeat not the word in thy prayer. *

I honestly don’t see Christ quoting or referring to Ecc 7:14 at all. ???

Mat 23:37: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
2 Esdras
1:30 I gathered you as a hen gathers her brood under her wings. But now, what shall I do to you? I will cast you out from my presence.1:31 When you offer oblations to me, I will turn my face from you; for I have rejected your feast days, and new moons, and circumcisions of the flesh.1:32 I sent to you my servants the prophets, but you have taken and slain them and torn their bodies in pieces; their blood I will require of you, says the Lord.

appear to be quoting
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dparker said:
CONTINUED FROM PRIOR POST

*John 10:22: At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. *
1 Maccabees 4:59: Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with gladness and joy for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Chislev.

This one really stumps me…

Rom 9:21: Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Wisdom 15:7: For when a potter kneads the soft earth and laboriously molds each vessel for our service, he fashions out of the same clay both the vessels that serve clean uses and those for contrary uses, making all in like manner; but which shall be the use of each of these the worker in clay decides.

Okay…once again, a similar analogy, but certainly not a quote.

*Rom 11:34: For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? *
Wisdom 9:13: For what man can learn the counsel of God?
Or who can discern what the Lord wills?

Now this is close enough to might be a quote, but it’s certainly hard to tell. I’d be surprised if this quote isn’t elsewhere in the OT as well.

*2 Cor 9:7: Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. *
*Ecclesiasticus 35:9: The sacrifice of the just is acceptable, and the Lord will not forget the memorial thereof. *

Certainly not a quote here either…

*Heb 1:3: And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, *
Wisdom 7:26: For she is a reflection of eternal light,
a spotless mirror of the working of God,
and an image of his goodness.

Not here either…

*Heb 11:35: Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; *
2 Maccabees 7: It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and cords, to partake of unlawful swine’s flesh. [2] One of them, acting as their spokesman, said, “What do you intend to ask and learn from us? For we are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our fathers.”[3] The king fell into a rage, and gave orders that pans and caldrons be heated…( continues telling a real tragedy)

Perhaps an example of what Heb 11:35f MAY be referring to…but certainly not a quote.

I’m dissapointed. I had felt that if Christ or the Apostles had indeed quoted these “other” books, then that should serve to convince any reasonable person.

However, I just don’t see it. Please point out what I am missing. Were there perhaps typo errors and I went to the wrong verses?
Click to expand...

Some books exist in more than one language, or in longer or shorter forms - this can affect the usefulness of the references: especially if the verse number is that of a verse in a book which has been translated from a text or version other than that to which the given reference applies. Study of the text has not stood still since 1611,when the AV (aka the KJV) was made. So using its references may be misleading.​

In the OT, 1 Samuel 17 is the reference for the chapter of the Masoretic text of the OT in which David kills Goliath - the Greek Old Testament has the same incident, but a different reference entirely. That is the sort of thing that can happen to the “books called Apocrypha” (three of which the CC does not accept as “inspired and canonical”, FWIW)
 
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