The Apostle Paul and Romans 7:14-25

[Gaelic_Bard]

In Romans 7:14-25, the apostle Paul says the following:

“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power. For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good. So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. For in my inner self, I joyfully agree with God’s law. But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.”

There is some controversy in Protestant circles as to whether Paul is here speaking of himself in the present tense, as a regenerate Christian (more common in Lutheran/Reformed circles) or whether Paul is speaking of his former life in Judaism prior to his conversion.

I was interested in getting views from the posters here, especially Catholics and Orthodox and how it fits into your theology.

 

[pablope]

In Romans 7:14-25, the apostle Paul says the following:

“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power. For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good. So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. For in my inner self, I joyfully agree with God’s law. But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.”

There is some controversy in Protestant circles as to whether Paul is here speaking of himself in the present tense, as a regenerate Christian (more common in Lutheran/Reformed circles) or whether Paul is speaking of his former life in Judaism prior to his conversion.

I was interested in getting views from the posters here, especially Catholics and Orthodox and how it fits into your theology.

You should include v13 with this passage.

V14-20:

CCC:

2541 The economy of law and grace turns men’s hearts away from avarice and envy. It initiates them into desire for the Sovereign Good; it instructs them in the desires of the Holy Spirit who satisfies man’s heart.

The God of the promises always warned man against seduction by what from the beginning has seemed "good for food . . . a delight to the eyes . . . to be desired to make one wise."330

2542 The Law entrusted to Israel never sufficed to justify those subject to it; it even became the instrument of "lust."331 The gap between wanting and doing points to the conflict between God’s Law which is the “law of my mind,” and another law "making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members."332

2543 "But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe."333 Henceforth, Christ’s faithful “have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires”; they are led by the Spirit and follow the desires of the Spirit.334

V23…speaks of or refers to concupiscence.

V24-25…our life…our journey…our cross…involves a struggle with sin…therefor, there is an ongoing need to continue to confess and ask for forgiveness.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

You should include v13 with this passage.

V14-20:

CCC:

2541 The economy of law and grace turns men’s hearts away from avarice and envy. It initiates them into desire for the Sovereign Good; it instructs them in the desires of the Holy Spirit who satisfies man’s heart.

The God of the promises always warned man against seduction by what from the beginning has seemed "good for food . . . a delight to the eyes . . . to be desired to make one wise."330

2542 The Law entrusted to Israel never sufficed to justify those subject to it; it even became the instrument of "lust."331 The gap between wanting and doing points to the conflict between God’s Law which is the “law of my mind,” and another law "making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members."332

2543 "But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe."333 Henceforth, Christ’s faithful “have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires”; they are led by the Spirit and follow the desires of the Spirit.334

V23…speaks of or refers to concupiscence.

V24-25…our life…our journey…our cross…involves a struggle with sin…therefor, there is an ongoing need to continue to confess and ask for forgiveness.

Yeah, I didn’t want to separate it from the overall context of chapter 7, but figured that would be something to refer to later as needs to. In addition, I shortened for brevity. There’s much from the catechism you posted that I would agree with, especially as relates to the unregenerste man’s inability to keep the Mosaic Law (as it relates to Jews that lived under it). Do you believe that Paul is referring to himself as a Christian or past tense in his life as a Jew?

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Present tense. Becoming Christian does not mean that we are immune to temptation.

 

[LightFromLight]

In Romans 7:14-25, the apostle Paul says the following:

“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power. For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good. So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. For in my inner self, I joyfully agree with God’s law. But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.”

There is some controversy in Protestant circles as to whether Paul is here speaking of himself in the present tense, as a regenerate Christian (more common in Lutheran/Reformed circles) or whether Paul is speaking of his former life in Judaism prior to his conversion.

I was interested in getting views from the posters here, especially Catholics and Orthodox and how it fits into your theology.

I would agree on it being present tense. We are all sinners desperately in need of God’s Mercy and Healing.

 

[Ontheway]

This question is somewhat related to the issue of Paul and his conversion.

Since most of the followers of Jesus were Jews to begin with, at what point did they decide to “abandon” their old beliefs? Did Paul stop being an observant Jew as soon as he heard the words on the road, or did he continue being a good Jew, but now without the compulsion to slay all Christians? Jesus was a Jew and continued to pray in the temple until the end. I assume that his followers did the same. At what point did they stop?

 

[pablope]

Yeah,

Do you believe that Paul is referring to himself as a Christian or past tense in his life as a Jew?

I would say he was speaking as a Christian…that even though baptized, that part of our journey is trying to be perfect as the Father is perfect…that he, like the Roman Christians and any Christian, struggle with sin and therefor, there is a need for continued repentance and forgiveness. I think this is in the latter part of the passage.

Maybe this link will help you understand…the three states of way…newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

State or Way (Purgative, Illuminative, Unitive)

The word state is used in various senses by theologians and spiritual writers. It may be taken to signify a profession or calling in life, as where St. Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 7:20: “Let every man abide in the same calling in which he was called”. We have, in this sense, states of perfection, classified in the Church as the clerical state, the religious state, and the secular state; and among religious states, again, we have those of the contemplative, the active, and the mixed orders.

The word is also used in the classification of the degrees or stages of Christian perfection, or the advancement of souls in the supernatural life of grace during their sojourn in the world. This has reference to the practice of all the virtues, both theological and moral, and to all their acts both external and internal. It includes two elements, namely our own efforts and the grace of God assisting us. This grace is never wanting for those acts which are positively commanded or inspired by God, and the work of perfection will proceed according to the energy and fidelity with which souls correspond with its aids.