The Ascension

[Perfect_Child]

I don’t know why mainstream Catholocism proposes the idea that Jesus descended into Hell. I don’t know if its because Catholics believe Hell is a Kingdom; and most assertively the kingdom of satan.

Within scripture Hell is a place of reservation, being reserved as punishment. I know the origin of the teaching as Hell is a Kingdom is directly taken from Dante’s Inferno.

However, minus- Dante’s Inferno; Hell was never a Kingdom but only the reservation of punishment (a place of burning). I don’t understand how Catholics believe that satan does his work from Hell, when within Revelation; satan is tortured night and day. I don’t understand why you think there is a throne in Hell.

Why would Jesus descend into Hell anyways?

Isn’t the correct interpretation–that when Jesus died he was given over to the powers and principalities in order to be judged by them; and when they could find no fault within him, then the powers and principalities were placed under his feet; and no longer had power within the world? Isn’t that what really happened? and then Jesus rose the third day.

 

[JeanneH]

I don’t know why mainstream Catholocism proposes the idea that Jesus descended into Hell. I don’t know if its because Catholics believe Hell is a Kingdom; and most assertively the kingdom of satan.

Within scripture Hell is a place of reservation, being reserved as punishment. I know the origin of the teaching as Hell is a Kingdom is directly taken from Dante’s Inferno.

However, minus- Dante’s Inferno; Hell was never a Kingdom but only the reservation of punishment (a place of burning). I don’t understand how Catholics believe that satan does his work from Hell, when within Revelation; satan is tortured night and day. I don’t understand why you think there is a throne in Hell.

Why would Jesus descend into Hell anyways?

Isn’t the correct interpretation–that when Jesus died he was given over to the powers and principalities in order to be judged by them; and when they could find no fault within him, then the powers and principalities were placed under his feet; and no longer had power within the world? Isn’t that what really happened? and then Jesus rose the third day.

IMHO I think that hell is a mistranslation of the word when describing that Jesus descended into hell.

I think that Jesus went to the place where good people like Abraham, Jacob etc went when they died. I think that they were in a holding place until Jesus died on the cross and opened the gates of heaven for us all.

Just my opinion
Jeanne

 

[Snerticus]

I don’t know why mainstream Catholocism proposes the idea that Jesus descended into Hell. I don’t know if its because Catholics believe Hell is a Kingdom; and most assertively the kingdom of satan.

Within scripture Hell is a place of reservation, being reserved as punishment. I know the origin of the teaching as Hell is a Kingdom is directly taken from Dante’s Inferno.

However, minus- Dante’s Inferno; Hell was never a Kingdom but only the reservation of punishment (a place of burning). I don’t understand how Catholics believe that satan does his work from Hell, when within Revelation; satan is tortured night and day. I don’t understand why you think there is a throne in Hell.

Why would Jesus descend into Hell anyways?

Isn’t the correct interpretation–that when Jesus died he was given over to the powers and principalities in order to be judged by them; and when they could find no fault within him, then the powers and principalities were placed under his feet; and no longer had power within the world? Isn’t that what really happened? and then Jesus rose the third day.

The word “hell” I believe in the Creed has a small “h”, and it depicts hades or the netherworld in which the dead went after the death of the body prior to Christ’s resurrection. When he descended to hell, he freed the souls that were found “just” and opened the gates of Heaven for them. It’s not the fire and brimstone “Hell” we hear of with wailing and gnasing of teeth. I’ll try to find reference of it in the Catechism.

 

[Snerticus]

IMHO I think that hell is a mistranslation of the word when describing that Jesus descended into hell.

I think that Jesus went to the place where good people like Abraham, Jacob etc went when they died. I think that they were in a holding place until Jesus died on the cross and opened the gates of heaven for us all.

Just my opinion
Jeanne

Correct, known as Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in Greek. Also known as Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Just my opinion
Jeanne

Not just your opinion, cf. the Catechism of the Catholic Church: Paragraph 1. CHRIST DESCENDED INTO HELL.

tee

 

[Snerticus]

Okay, found it in the Catechism: CCC 633

Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

 

[promethius]

However, minus- Dante’s Inferno; Hell was never a Kingdom but only the reservation of punishment (a place of burning). I don’t understand how Catholics believe that satan does his work from Hell, when within Revelation; satan is tortured night and day. I don’t understand why you think there is a throne in Hell.

ACTUALLY, the revelations torture in the “lake of fire” is an end times prophecy, not a current event. And the idea of hell as a kingdom predates Dante by a long time. If you read “Hostage to the Devil” sometime you’ll see in the transcripted portions of the exorcisms that even the demons refer to hell as “the kingdom”

 

[Perfect_Child]

IMHO I think that hell is a mistranslation of the word when describing that Jesus descended into hell.

I think that Jesus went to the place where good people like Abraham, Jacob etc went when they died. I think that they were in a holding place until Jesus died on the cross and opened the gates of heaven for us all.

Just my opinion
Jeanne

Do you remember where Jesus was transformed and was caught speaking to Moses and Elijah together? If this was so did they not come from Heaven to speak with jesus?

And what about the story of the rich man who sees Lazarus and Abraham across the void, from where the rich man was burning? Was not Abraham in Heaven?

I know the place of your understanding, what you call Limbo; however, are not the preceding instances the best examples that all three men were in Heaven?

And if not…then how does Lazarus find himself in the place of peace and not Moses or Elijah? And plus if God sends prophets to the earth then did not the prophets come to him and return to him from where he sent?

 

[Snerticus]

Do you remember where Jesus was transformed and was caught speaking to Moses and Elijah together? If this was so did they not come from Heaven to speak with jesus?

I believe hearing somewhere that Moses and Elijah were in fact in heaven, but it was only a select handful that made it there. Everyone else went to Sheol. Good or bad.

And what about the story of the rich man who sees Lazarus and Abraham across the void, from where the rich man was burning? Was not Abraham in Heaven?

No, Abraham was not in Heaven, he was in Sheol, as already described, it was in the part of Sheol called “Abraham’s Bosom”. The rich man was in another part of Sheol - the one reserved for the unrighteous. And there was a chasm between the two, even though both were in what was known as Sheol.

I know the place of your understanding, what you call Limbo; however, are not the preceding instances the best examples that all three men were in Heaven?

Limbo is actually another place altogether. I’d have to look it up to find an explanation of it.

And if not…then how does Lazarus find himself in the place of peace and not Moses or Elijah? And plus if God sends prophets to the earth then did not the prophets come to him and return to him from where he sent?

That was already mentioned, although maybe not fully enough. Before Christ’s ressurection, the gates of Heaven were closed. Souls went to Sheol and it consisted of two parts, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous. The righteous part was one of peace while waiting for the Lord, the unrighteous place was not. There was a chasm between the two. This of course is overly simplified, but hopefully explains the difference.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Do you remember where Jesus was transformed and was caught speaking to Moses and Elijah together? If this was so did they not come from Heaven to speak with jesus?

…Or from the Limbo of the Fathers?

And what about the story of the rich man who sees Lazarus and Abraham across the void, from where the rich man was burning? Was not Abraham in Heaven?

…Or in the Limbo of the Fathers?

I know the place of your understanding, what you call Limbo; however, are not the preceding instances the best examples that all three men were in Heaven?

…Or in the Limbo of the Fathers?

And if not…then how does Lazarus find himself in the place of peace and not Moses or Elijah?

Why do you think the Limbo of the Fathers would not be a place of peace?

tee

 

[Perfect_Child]

The word “hell” I believe in the Creed has a small “h”, and it depicts hades or the netherworld in which the dead went after the death of the body prior to Christ’s resurrection. When he descended to hell, he freed the souls that were found “just” and opened the gates of Heaven for them. It’s not the fire and brimstone “Hell” we hear of with wailing and gnasing of teeth. I’ll try to find reference of it in the Catechism.

No way. That’s a cross-contamination of religion. And it is.

Hades is part of Greco-Roman tradition. And of course the church being in Rome would take on some Roman tradition, in order to gratify Rome.

There is no reference to Hades in the old-testament, whatsoever.

As you know, in the tradition of the pharisees, ressurection was taught by them. And it wasn’t clear in what happened to the wicked until Christ came, who is the Manna of Heaven–that he clarified it by speaking about the ressurection of life and the ressurection of damnation. That is all that Judaism taught. You will find no reference to an “underworld” in the Old or the New Testament.

But what Jesus says is that Hell is a place of burning for the wicked. Jesus also calls it the everlasting-fires, in which the truly wicked are burned.

I know the origin of the place you talk, the underworld, whatever. It is called Hades and to be truthful the church really didn’t take on the theology that such a place existed until Dante’s Inferno. yeah, the nine rings of hell, layers, whatever.

It simply isn’t true. I also know the place you speak of called Limbo. But look, when Lazarus died and found himself with the Angel of Abraham…ok…enough said.

 

[Snerticus]

No way. That’s a cross-contamination of religion. And it is.

Hades is part of Greco-Roman tradition. And of course the church being in Rome would take on some Roman tradition, in order to gratify Rome.

There is no reference to Hades in the old-testament, whatsoever.

As you know, in the tradition of the pharisees, ressurection was taught by them. And it wasn’t clear in what happened to the wicked until Christ came, who is the Manna of Heaven–that he clarified it by speaking about the ressurection of life and the ressurection of damnation. That is all that Judaism taught. You will find no reference to an “underworld” in the Old or the New Testament.

But what Jesus says is that Hell is a place of burning for the wicked. Jesus also calls it the everlasting-fires, in which the truly wicked are burned.

I know the origin of the place you talk, the underworld, whatever. It is called Hades and to be truthful the church really didn’t take on the theology that such a place existed until Dante’s Inferno. yeah, the nine rings of hell, layers, whatever.

It simply isn’t true. I also know the place you speak of called Limbo. But look, when Lazarus died and found himself with the Angel of Abraham…ok…enough said.

I already fererred you to the teaching of the Catholic faith in the Catechism. Can’t get much more Catholic teaching than that.

 

[Perfect_Child]

Correct, known as Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in Greek. Also known as Abraham’s Bosom.

So if Sheol is correct and also known as Abraham’s Bosom. Then when Lazarus was in Abraham’s Bosom after his death are you telling me that both Lazarus and Abraham were in the underworld?

So where was the rich man who was burning and pleading with Abraham to send Lazarus to wet his lips?

And if Jesus descended into the underworld to call of the Righteous and Just then what explains the disciples vision in which Christ was transformed; in that his face shown with light…and he was caught speaking with both (who was it) Elijah and Moses? What? They came from the underworld to speak with him?

And if Lazarus was in the underworld how come his soul was at rest with Abraham? Is there rest in the underworld?

And if Elijah, Moses and Abraham were sent by God then do they not return to God? Does not God send the Righteous? Does not God send the Prophets?

If so, then how come these men, being right and just, do not return to God in Heaven; from whom sent them into the world?

And when were the powers and principalities placed under Christ’s foot? In Sheol? I thought Jesus only descended in 'hell" to call the righteous up? When were the powers and principalities placed under Christ’s foot? Before or after his ascension?

 

[Snerticus]

So if Sheol is correct and also known as Abraham’s Bosom. Then when Lazarus was in Abraham’s Bosom after his death are you telling me that both Lazarus and Abraham were in the underworld?

So where was the rich man who was burning and pleading with Abraham to send Lazarus to wet his lips?

And if Jesus descended into the underworld to call of the Righteous and Just then what explains the disciples vision in which Christ was transformed; in that his face shown with light…and he was caught speaking with both (who was it) Elijah and Moses? What? They came from the underworld to speak with him?

And if Lazarus was in the underworld how come his soul was at rest with Abraham? Is there rest in the underworld?

And if Elijah, Moses and Abraham were sent by God then do they not return to God? Does not God send the Righteous? Does not God send the Prophets?

If so, then how come these men, being right and just, do not return to God in Heaven; from whom sent them into the world?

And when were the powers and principalities placed under Christ’s foot? In Sheol? I thought Jesus only descended in 'hell" to call the righteous up? When were the powers and principalities placed under Christ’s foot? Before or after his ascension?

Please read all of the posts before you ask questions like the ones above. 99% of them have already been answered. If you are still confused, I’d be happy to elaborate as best I can. I’m no scolar, but I am equipped with a little bit of knowedge and the Catechism, as well as the Bible. Other people have answered here too. And I would guess that a search of “sheol” or “abraham’s bosom” both on Catholic Answers and generally on the internet (ie Google) would help too.