The Avignon Papacy?

[Knight4Mary]

AMDG+JMJ

I’m trying to email a Protestant friend of mine, explaining to him why the Catholic Church is *Roman. *Obviously, because the Pope is the Bishop of Rome and because Peter died in Rome. However, I’m still a little unclear on why the papacy was moved to Avignon in 1309 by Clement V. I know Rome was in some sort of anarchy, but wasn’t there also a myth of two popes reigning at the same time? (though obviously only one was the *true *pope) Anyway, if anyone knows a brief history of this time period, it was be much appreciated!! Thanks in advance, and God Bless!!

 

[space_ghost]

go to the catholic answers site and put the word pope in the search block, and you will find all you need… See what “Popes” up… sorry about that

 

[Chris_C]

great intro to the Western Schism

newadvent.org/cathen/13539a.htm

c

 

[II_Paradox_II]

Knight4Mary:

I know Rome was in some sort of anarchy, but wasn’t there also a myth of two popes reigning at the same time? (though obviously only one was the *true *pope) Anyway, if anyone knows a brief history of this time period, it was be much appreciated!! Thanks in advance, and God Bless!!

The multiple Popes arose when the Papacy was moved back from Avignon to Rome. During that time there were up to 3 claimants to the title of Pope who were mutually anathematizing each other. The first two had been battling from Rome and Avignon. The third was elected by the Council of Pisa who claimed conciliar authority was greater than papal authority. This third Pope, however, did not end the schism but perpetuated it. Later the council of Constance, hoping to continue the work of Constance and fix it’s mistakes, resolved the schism by deposing of two of the warring Popes while the third resigned. After all this a new Pope was elected and the schism ended.

The primary import of this event was the impact on Catholic ecclesiology. There was at the time a battle over the powers of the church - especially over the issue of whether a Pope had precedence over a church council. Though Constance and Pisa both seemed to be victories for the conciliarist movement, eventually the more dominant Papalist view achieved victory and now it is commonly held that Popes have authority over councils and not the other way around.

ken

 

[II_Paradox_II]

II Paradox II:

Later the council of Constance, hoping to continue the work of Constance and fix it’s mistakes, resolved the schism by deposing of two of the warring Popes while the third resigned.

Btw- I meant that the Council of Constance was hoping to continue the work of the Council of Pisa…

ken

 

[Hesychios]

II Paradox II:

Btw- I meant that the Council of Constance was hoping to continue the work of the Council of Pisa…

ken

Thanks Ken,
I think this was an extremely important episode in church history, and every budding apologist should know exactly what went on then. The questions will eventually come up, there is no reason to be blindsided by this.

Knowing precisely what happened and why, and being perfectly straightforward about it, is the best possible approach.

Michael

 

[II_Paradox_II]

Hesychios:

Thanks Ken,
I think this was an extremely important episode in church history, and every budding apologist should know exactly what went on then. The questions will eventually come up, there is no reason to be blindsided by this.

Just so you know, I’m not Catholic, but Reformed. I would agree though that the period is very important. It’s not really my area of study, but the era was definitely a key one for understanding the development and challenges to the Papacy in the western church.

ken

 

[Hesychios]

II Paradox II:

Just so you know, I’m not Catholic, but Reformed.
ken

I appreciate that your post is factual, to the point and unbiased. It is very easy to slide into editorial comment, many do and I am no exception.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Hesychios]

The Papacy is wherever Peter is.

It has nothing to do with Rome as a city, Peter chose Rome for whatever purposes he had at that time. Some scholars maintain that Simon Peter would have been at Rome for about 15 years, that is impossible to verify but there are good arguments for it.

We also know that he travelled extensively, but travel was slow and dangerous. Wherever he was, there was the Papacy. So it is clear that Antioch was the first See of Peter and he carried the “keys” to Rome.

A future Pope might have a reason to remove the office from the city again. As terrible as that may seem to some individuals, if it were to be necessary we would have to accept it and support it.

Removing the Papacy to Avignon may have made a lot of sense at the time, but there was certainly a lot of politics involved. If it was to mean greater influence of one monarch over the church (read France) it could have resulted in breaking up into national churches permanently.

Since I am writing from memory I cannot insert any names or dates.

At the time the Papacy was in Avignon (the “Babylonian Captivity”) there was an Archbishop in Rome as Suffragen, I believe. The motives for the Great Western schism were many but I am led to believe that a notoriously poor choice for Pope was at the root of the problem. Apparently, the entire college of Cardinals that installed him (to a man) fled Rome and elected a new Pope outside the city, then they headed out to Avignon.

It is hard to blame them, they had no precedence to follow and given the same set of circumstances we might have done the same. Although a time of crises, it was a time of great saints as well.

I think the resolution of the crises is even more interesting than the origin of it. There are still many lessons for us in this story.

In Christ always,
Michael

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

It seems I must clarify my own post. I don’t think it was particularly in error, but the way I wrote it can be confusing, something I found out too late to edit.

Hesychios:

The Papacy is wherever Peter is.
-snip-

At the time the Papacy was in Avignon (the “Babylonian Captivity”) there was an Archbishop in Rome as Suffragen, I believe.

There was one true line of Popes resident at Avignon from 1303 to 1378. As a background to this there was a hotly contested Papal election which resulted in the choice of Niccolo Boccasini as Benedict XI, due to violence in the city Pope Benedict was not able to live there and he set up residence temporarily at Anagni. The King of France forcibly removed him to Avignon where he died. His successor, Raymond Bertrand de Got was installed as Clement V and established the Papal administration in Avignon on a more permanent basis. This situation resulted in the election of a string of Popes of French ethnicity under the influence of the King of France.

Pierre Roger de Beaufort as Pope Gregory XI removed the Papacy from Avignon back to Rome, he may have been trying to put distance between the Papacy and the King. Many accounts say Catherine of Siena had influenced him to make the move. It was a difficult transition with large baggage trains of items and records, everything a Papal administration would need, some items were lost or destroyed. The hot climate was more difficult to endure than at Avignon and there were some problems with sanitation, Gregory XI soon died.

The mobs of Rome terrorized the Cardinals in conclave. They wanted an Italian Pope. The choice fell upon Bartolomeo Prignano, a Neapolitan who was an Archbishop, but not a Cardinal. He reigned as Urban VI.

The motives for the Great Western schism were many but I am led to believe that a notoriously poor choice for Pope was at the root of the problem. Apparently, the entire college of Cardinals that installed him (to a man) fled Rome and elected a new Pope outside the city, then they headed out to Avignon.

The second set of Popes to reside at Avignon were there due to the schism, they are considered anti-Popes today. The choice of Pope by the Cardinals who fled the service of Urban VI fell upon Robert of Geneva, a Cardinal who served as Clement VII. Allegience of Europe was split between these two Popes, and both created Cardinals to perpetuate their lines of service. This line of anti-Popes lasted from 1378 until it’s conclusion in 1417.

Of course, by then there was a third line of Popes (at Pisa) as a result of failed attempts to depose the other two.

Hopefully, this will clarify the story of the origins of the schism. However this posting does not do the issue justice, it bears further study.

Michael

 

[empther]

Very important to the issue of who was the true Pope was the Hundred Years’ War going on at that time. ( 1337-1450 )

The University of Paris clergy felt that they should be the center of Christendom rather than Rome. They were pushing for the Avignon ‘pope’. The political strategy was to support England in the Hundred Years’ War. If England succeeded in taken over France, the French Estates General would then be the main political force in France. The University of Paris faction of the Church believed they could dominate the Estates General at least in religious matters. They would then be able to push for their own Pope to replace Rome. Italy is cut off from Europe by the Alps, but there’s Paris right in the heart of Europe.

By 1429, the War was 91 years old. The French had been losing for decades. Orleans was under siege. If it fell, there would be nothing left to prevent the English from pushing into the very center of France, the only part of the country they didn’t control.

Enter Joan of Arc.

In a burst of astonishing military victories Joan turned the War around and gave the advantage to the French.

When Joan was captured, it was the University of Paris faction of the Church who were working behind the scene of the trial. Bishop Cauchon, the trial judge, sent to the University of Paris for advice on the list of charges and for other advice. Many of his handpicked ‘assessors’ were from the U of Paris including Cauchon himself.

Joan was condemned to death but it was too late. The French continued to win and eventually won the war. The English were pushed off the continent and the University of Paris clergy lost their political friends. That took care of their dream of becoming the center of Christendom. The Roman Papacy was secure.

For more details, see: joanofarcpo.com/ABOUT1