The "Binding Force Of Tradition"

[Catholic_Northlander]

I just stumbled across a lecture the other day by exorcist Fr. Chad Ripperger called “The Binding Force Of Tradition”, and I am curious to hear if anyone else has seen it and what they think about it. Thoughts anyone?

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Welcome to the forums Catholic Northlander. I enjoy the youtubes of Fr Chad Ripperger. Is there something in this lecture that is concerning to you?

 

[Catholic_Northlander]

Well, yes and no. . . .

I think also the more I listen to Father Ripperger, the more I realize . . . I learn about spiritual warfare and since I just finished his lecture on “Traditions Of Liturgy”.
I’m not sure what else to think, but our lord’s church seems to need more prayers than ever right now, although ultimately I know God still has a plan, and so I will continue to try to trust him, not worry about it and live a life of virtue in the way the church of the past teaches us.
Thank you for the quick reply - especially considering that this comment is much longer than I thought it would be - and God bless you!

P.S.
I appreciate the username you chose. Our Lady Of Sorrows, pray for us!

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Watch Fr Ripperger’s youtube cautionary tales on traditional Catholics who some he sees as going off the correct path.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I don’t think I can in good conscience choose to go to a Novus Ordo mass over the Traditional Latin Mass

I would be careful about saying that. Are you saying it is invalid? The Church has ALWAYS had diversity in liturgy, check out the Eastern Catholic area if you don’t believe me.

I’m not sure what else to think, but our lord’s church seems to need more prayers than ever right now, although ultimately I know God still has a plan, and so I will continue to try to trust him, not worry about it and live a life of virtue in the way the church of the past teaches us.

By bashing the Novus Ordo?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Fr. Ripperger’s a traditionalist priest, obviously. Not having seen the actual lecture I don’t have much comment on it beyond that.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think also the more I listen to Father Ripperger, the more I realize that I may have in a sense been cheated by the modern church because it didn’t tell me about so many of the most important aspects of what it means to live a Catholic life and what we face as a result.

You basically just said Fr. Ripperger’s lectures are leading you into sin because they are causing you to distrust God’s Church. Your comment about not being able to go to an Ordinary Form Mass in good conscience just shows how messed up your thinking has gotten.

There is nothing wrong with or less holy about an OF Mass. The form is approved by the Catholic Church for 50 years now. It is no better and no worse than a TLM. Your conscience should not be bothered by going to the OF Mass.

You should stop listening to Fr. Ripperger as it is an occasion of sin for you.

 

[commenter]

Hi C. Northlander,
First, welcome to CAF. I hope you find it interesting and informative.

Regards Fr. Ripperger, I suggest a moderate position. He does emphasize some aspects of Tradition that are still important, but sadly neglected in recent decades, in catechesis and preaching. Consider his insights carefully. Most Catholics have no idea what Tradition (not just tradition) is, let alone that it is part of a tripod of authority, along with scripture and magisterium.

But, some people (not necessarily Fr. himself) misuse his argument. They say Tradition is obvious and self explanatory, anyone can interpret it without relying on the current Magisterium.

There’s a need for balance.

 

[OraLabora]

You need to first make the distinction between Tradition, and tradition.

The first is magisterial. The second is whatever the folks labelling themselves such want it to be, on a spectrum ranging from sedevacantism, through denying the teachings of Vatican II, through preferring the EF liturgy, to someone like me applying some traditions like Gregorian chant to the modern liturgy but who accepts Vatican II with joy.

It’s a minefield, however as orthodox Catholics, only Tradition is magisterial and hence de fide.

 

[Catholic_Northlander]

To be clear, I do still believe ed it is a valid mass, however it seems wrong that after the latin mass was developed over the course of centuries to just replace it with a new one.

This is especially considering that 1)many Popes, Saints and doctors of the church had contributed to it’s development whilst maintaining the core structure put in place by the early Christians, and 2) Saint Pope Pious V said over the missals for the TLM that if anyone changed the mass or took anything out of it, may they know that they have “incurredthe wrath of almighty God”.

To clarify one last this, this is not a judgement of Novus Ordo attendees, only that it seems less than a shadow of the traditions that came before.

 

[Catholic_Northlander]

With all due respect, I disagree. Just because I mistrust the recent pastoral changes, that does not mean that I do not trust the church as a whole, nor does it mean I mistrust God.

However, it does seem that they have changed more than any saints or doctors of the church would have ever permitted, such as St. Pope Pious V.

Might I also mention that Father Ripperger is an exorcist, meaning that if what he was saying was heretical or he was corrupt, he wouldn’t exactly be able to do his job, so surely what he says could not be nearly as bad as you seem to think.

Just try listening to the lecture, then tell me what you think.

 

[Catholic_Northlander]

Thank you, I appreciate both the welcome and the feedback, as it is good to be here.

I do agree that though as an exorcist he must be very knowledgeable about these things, I agree that the traditional teachings are not necessarily self evident anymore.

I do however believe that part of that is because many of the past traditions have not been passed down through the generations, but there isn’t much that can be done about that now aside from looking forward to what can be done now.

I am not here to bash the current magisterium either, as that is not my place. I do however believe from what I have been seeing that the church in recent years has not taught most of it’s members some of the most important teachings, such as ones regarding spiritual warfare.

But that is going off topic. Thank you again for your reason and level-headedness.

 

[Catholic_Northlander]

Amen to that!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Me listening to Fr Ripperger is not the point. I’ve listened to a lot of lectures by Fr. Ripperger. My opinion is that sometimes he says good and useful things and sometimes he says things that are way off the mark. I am able to benefit from the good and useful things he says and ignore the things that I think are off the mark. In any event, i do not listen to what he says and then become troubled about the current OF Mass that is approved by the Vatican and that we have been using for decades.

What is fine for one person may be an occasion of sin for another.
Your post where you made a speech about how it bothered your conscience to go to a Vatican-approved Mass shows that listening to Fr. Ripperger may very well be an occasion of sin for you.
You’re using Fr. Ripperger (and now the saints and doctors of the Church) as excuses to justify you having a completely wrong viewpoint that the OF Mass is somehow sinful in that it bothers your conscience.

It would be fine if you simply said you preferred the traditional Mass. We’re permitted to have preferences. But when you start saying you can’t in good conscience accept a Mass in the current form approved by the Vatican for decades now and in wide use by the Church and the faithful, then this is wrong and you are going down a wrong path of thinking. Period, final.

Muting this thread now. God bless and I hope you get over this odd view that normal Church Masses are somehow sinful. Fr. Ripperger will one day have to answer to God for leading people astray in this way.

 

[OraLabora]

You need to go to an OF Mass at aBenedictine abbey of the Solesmes Congregation. I attend Mass at one.

You would not find the differences shocking, in fact you may come to appreciate and understand them. All the while surrounded by beautiful Gregorian chant in Latin (and Greek).

You’ll come to realize that the issues people often have with the OF have nothing to do with the form but rather the manner of execution.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

You need to go to an OF Mass at aBenedictine abbey of the Solesmes Congregation

Thing is most people can’t do that. Many people would have just as hard of a time or harder time getting to a Benedictine Abbey as they would have going to a TLM but I will say that I suspect that many that would be looking for a TLM, couldn’t fine one but could get to the abbey, probably would.

I believe some of these Benedictine Abbeys do have the TLM Mass, am I correct? I know here in the US Clear Creek Abbey says the TLM. I would love to attend Mass there someday. I purchased my Monastic Diurnal from Clear Creek Abbey

You’ll come to realize that the issues people often have with the OF have nothing to do with the form but rather the manner of execution.

I suspect this is a good part of the problem. Catholics are waking up to the realization that the Mass deserves so much more respect and reverence than what it gets. That is what happened with me. There is also, though, certain prayers and actions that were lost with the changes in the Mass.

 

[OraLabora]

Thing is most people can’t do that. Many people would have just as hard of a time or harder time getting to a Benedictine Abbey as they would have going to a TLM but I will say that I suspect that many that would be looking for a TLM, couldn’t fine one but could get to the abbey, probably would.

I realize that but my point was just to illustrate that there’s nothing wrong with the OF Mass when properly done. If every OF Mass was like at one of our abbeys, I dare say demand for the EF would be quite a bit lower.

I believe some of these Benedictine Abbeys do have the TLM Mass, am I correct?

Yes Clear Creek though my spiritual director says they’ve incorporated some elements of the newer Liturgy though I’m not sure which elements. Of course Benedictine abbeys also have a lot of leeway in regulating their liturgy.

Three others that I know of are Fontgombault, Trios and Randol, all in France; the latter is a very modern abbey with very old liturgy!

Solesmes itself uses the OF in Gregorian chant, all in Latin/Greek. Our abbey uses Latin/Greek for the propers and ordinary and French plainchant for the rest; the Hours on a modern 1-week schema, Lauds and Vespers in Latin, the rest in French with Latin hymns. St. Wandrille, in France uses the OF all in Latin/Greek (it’s the abbey that founded ours). The Benedictine women near Montreal use the OF all in Latin/Greek, and the Hours all in Latin (Original Benedictine schema, post-VII version). The joke in the Congregation is that there are abbeys that try to outdo Solesmes, and abbeys that try to be as little as possible like Solesmes.

Catholics are waking up to the realization that the Mass deserves so much more respect and reverence than what it gets. That is what happened with me.

It’s pretty much why I go to our abbey. There are no egregious abuses in my area, but indifferent music. I also live in a bilingual (mostly French) area, and last time I went to a parish Mass, it was in English with an elderly retired priest who could barely speak English (and used the old translation, probably because it was all he could manage). It was a painful experience in spite of the lack of “abuse” and I felt sorry for the priest put into that position. I usually try to go to a French Mass when I need to go to a Parish Mass but time constraints forced me to go to the English Mass.

I prefer no music to indifferent music. Still, if there was an EF Mass even closer than the abbey, I would still go to the abbey though I might go to the EF out of curiosity once in a while. I simply prefer the OF and the simplifications, the additional EPs (especially EP IV), and the extra readings on Sundays that to me more than compensate for the “lost prayers and actions”. It also helps that I’m an oblate of the abbey, so I consider it, rather than my parish, my ecclesial community of choice.

 

[Catholic_Northlander]

To be clear, I never said that the Novus Ordo was sinful, and I never will.

Additionally, supplying evidence that the creatoon of Novus Ordo may have been contrary to previous church teaching on the liturgy that is based on what Popes and Doctors of the church have said could hardly be labeled as mere excuses.

I have faith in the Church, and so if it seems that the church makes changes contrary to what the church has said before, I will continue to go to the mass whose creation began with Saint Peter and continued to be used and developed for over fifteen hundred years.

 

[Catholic_Northlander]

I would classify myself as traditional in that I would choose to follow the teachings of the pre-Vatican two council over post-Vatican two if there is an area where they contradict.

As for interpretations I largely agree, and we should indeed rely on the current magisterium in the areas where they do not contradict the past teachings of the church. Fortunately, some things are pretty clear, such as what St. Pope Pious V said about the missals for the old mass, namely that if anyone changed it may they know that they have “incurred the wrath of almighty God”.
That at least seems to send a pretty clear message about the Novus Ordo.

To clarify, I am not saying the Novus Ordo is invalid, nor do I have anything against those who attend it, but as I said if there is a contradiction between post and pre-Vatican two teachings, I would rather go by what the church has always taught for centuries.

 

[Catholic_Northlander]

Thank you very much. I needed to hear that, as it is very easy to get caught up in worries about the current church and where it’s headed as well as problems with pride and snobbery, which I admit I have seen from certain traditionalists who a shall not mention by name.