The Bishop of Rome

[holdencaulfield]

I am having a friendly discussion over the Papacy with some Eastern Orthodox people on another forum. I would like some points both from the Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition to back up my claim for the Papacy. Right now their current argument is that the Rock mentioned in Matthew 16:17-19 is St. Peter’s confession of faith, not St. Peter himself. Thanks.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I am having a friendly discussion over the Papacy with some Eastern Orthodox people on another forum. I would like some points both from the Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition to back up my claim for the Papacy. Right now their current argument is that the Rock mentioned in Matthew 16:17-19 is St. Peter’s confession of faith, not St. Peter himself. Thanks.

Then why is Simon constantly referred to as Cephas (Peter)?

 

[holdencaulfield]

Then why is Simon constantly referred to as Cephas (Peter)?

My point, I think that it’s really a cop-out to say no this wasn’t St. Peter. They said that he was the first with that type of expression of Faith. I say no. I really wanted different examples.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I am having a friendly discussion over the Papacy with some Eastern Orthodox people on another forum. I would like some points both from the Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition to back up my claim for the Papacy. Right now their current argument is that the Rock mentioned in Matthew 16:17-19 is St. Peter’s confession of faith, not St. Peter himself. Thanks.

In the regular apologetics forum there are two threads, one labeled “Pope Fiction,” the other called, “Papal claims and history.” In them, you’ll find all sorts of good stuff from the fathers regarding the papacy.

Regarding the rock, here are a few quotations from Eastern fathers regarding it:

Now the foundations of this Church are on the holy mountains, since it is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. One of these mountains was indeed Peter, upon which rock the Lord promised to build his Church. Truly indeed and by highest right are sublime and elevated souls, souls which raise themselves above earthly things, called ‘mountains.’ The soul of the blessed Peter was called a lofty rock because he had a strong mooring in the faith and bore constantly and bravely the blows inflicted by temptations. - Basil the Great, Commentary on Isaiah 2, 66

Peter, with his whole soul, associates himself with the Lamb; and, by means of the change of his name, he is changed by the Lord into something more divine. Instead of Simon, being both called and having become a Rock, the great Peter did not by advancing little by little attain unto this grace, but at once he listened to his brother (Andrew), believed in the Lamb, and was through faith perfected, and, having cleaved to the Rock, became himself Peter. - Gregory of Nyssa, Homily 15

See thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were great and deserving of the choice, one is called a Rock and entrusted with the foundations of the Church. - Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 26

Blessed Peter, who for a while denied the Lord, Peter who was Chief of the Apostles, he who became unto us truly a firm Rock upon which is based the Lord’s Faith, upon which Rock the Church is in every way built. - Epiphanius, Against Heresies

Peter himself, the chief of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christwho received a revelation not from man, but fom the Father, as the Lord bears withness to him, saying, “Blessed are thou, Simon Bar-Jonah, because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven”;this very Peter,- and when I name Peter, I name that unbroken rock, that firm foundation, that great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called and the first who obeyed. - **John Chrysostom, Homily 3 ** de Poenit

“Peter, the leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church.” - John Chrysostom, In illud hoc Scitote

Those last two ought to be especially useful, for St. Chrysostom in one place identified the rock as Peter’s confession, but as these quotes show also identified it with Peter himself.

See here for more info: davidmacd.com/catholic/pope_peter_rock.htm

and here: bringyou.to/apologetics/a87.htm

Peace and God bless

 

[porthos11]

For Catholics, the confession of faith and the man himself are not mutually exclusive. Even the Roman liturgy considers the confession the rock, as well as the man himself, whose name was changed. God doesn’t change names without them reflecting on the persons themselves.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Could someone please show me a good website for Early Church Fathers?

 

[holdencaulfield]

Another argument by them was that St. Peter had a leadership of spiritual headship, however he was first among equals.

 

[scott1228]

ok, I can kind of see where some might say the church is built on that confession of faith, but when the Lord talks about binding and loosing, how can a confession of faith bind and loose?

doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Another argument by them was that St. Peter had a leadership of spiritual headship, however he was first among equals.

Check out the threads I linked to for a great deal of information on this particular issue. We dealt mostly with this issue. This website will also come in handy: globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/ecu.htm

 

[japhy]

Could someone please show me a good website for Early Church Fathers?

CCEL.org/fathers.html

Also check out NewAdvent.org

 

[Joe_5859]

Don’t forget that Catholic Answers has many tracts defending the papacy:

The Church & the Papacy

Those marked as “Fathers*” utilize many quotes from the early Church Fathers backing up Catholic doctrine.

For Writings of the Early Church Fathers:

• New Advent
• Catholic First
• Early Christian Writings
• Litteral’s Christian Library

 

[holdencaulfield]

ok, I can kind of see where some might say the church is built on that confession of faith, but when the Lord talks about binding and loosing, how can a confession of faith bind and loose?

doesnt make sense to me.

True, you have a point. Binding and Loosing is something that one can do, a person must be able to do this, faith cannot do anything, it’s an emotion.

 

[FCEGM]

True, you have a point. Binding and Loosing is something that one can do, a person must be able to do this, faith cannot do anything, it’s an emotion.

Faith is a gift to the intellect to believe what is revealed by God - especially through the Self-revelation of Christ; one may have an emotional reaction to that gift, but faith has to do with the intellect, not with the senses.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I haven’t gotten nearly as many responses on this thread as I would have hoped. I’m posting a link in another forum. I would have hoped that more people would respond to this thread. I really haven’t gotten anything out of this. I tried quoting Tertullian a bunch, however apparently the Orthodox aren’t big fans of him. Some one respond. I’m moving the thread here:

New Thread