The Blessed Virgin and the Prophets

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our Bible study-got into a discussion as to when ( if ever) there was an end to the role of Prophets ( Islam and Mormons please disregard) -the consensus was that Prophecy was fufilled with the Incarnation and the ministry of Jesus

the various appearances of the Virgin Mary where She delivered messages (secrets / requests) is this not Prophecy? was She not serving in part the Role of the Prophet-?

Thus is in effect Prophecy ongoing?
 
our Bible study-got into a discussion as to when ( if ever) there was an end to the role of Prophets ( Islam and Mormons please disregard) -the consensus was that Prophecy was fufilled with the Incarnation and the ministry of Jesus

the various appearances of the Virgin Mary where She delivered messages (secrets / requests) is this not Prophecy? was She not serving in part the Role of the Prophet-?

Thus is in effect Prophecy ongoing?
I can’t really say yes or no to that. (Yeah, I know Aristotle and the “law of excluded middle”. 😊) Catholic position is that ‘public revelation’ has ended but ‘private revelation’ can still happen.
 
our Bible study-got into a discussion as to when ( if ever) there was an end to the role of Prophets ( Islam and Mormons please disregard) -the consensus was that Prophecy was fufilled with the Incarnation and the ministry of Jesus

the various appearances of the Virgin Mary where She delivered messages (secrets / requests) is this not Prophecy? was She not serving in part the Role of the Prophet-?

Thus is in effect Prophecy ongoing?
Prophecy can’t be ongoing.

John the Baptist was the last Old Testament prophet.

Jesus was a Prophet, Priest and King. The only person ever to hold all three titles.
Priest as Malchizedeck, He was the priest who offerred Himself as a sacrifice.
Prophet because He proclaimed the word of God.
King because He was from the line of David and was to be the new King of the New Covenant and sit in the Throne of David.
The last sacrifice and the last prophet. See Revelation 22:19.

Because someone, like a priest, declares the Word of God even today, this does not make him a prophet. He is not an “oracle” of God as in the O.T. Prophets were spiritual guides in times of trouble, like the exiles. Sometimes they were harsh with the nation of Israel and sometimes they were encouraging. They also predicted the future at times (especially Daniel) but that was not their primary function. Also, they gave new truths to the people. There are no longer any new truths, although we might understand truths better in some way.

Fran
 
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Prophecy can't be ongoing.
Fran, I think this statement you made is true…
I guess i just don’t know scripture! Fran
There are always new things for us to learn.
John the Baptist was the last Old Testament prophet.
Yes, but he was not the end of prophesy!
The last sacrifice and the last prophet. See Revelation 22:19.

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Fran, this statement refers to the Apocalypse of John. It does not say there is no prophesy after Jesus.
Prophets were spiritual guides in times of trouble, like the exiles. Sometimes they were harsh with the nation of Israel and sometimes they were encouraging. They also predicted the future at times (especially Daniel) but that was not their primary function. Also, they gave new truths to the people. There are no longer any new truths, although we might understand truths better in some way.
The Church will continue to need the gift of prophesy until she is taken up into heaven. We will always need God’s direction in how to apply His eternal Truth.

If there is no more gift of prophesy, we have to throw out a LOT of scripture:
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  17*‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, 
  that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, 
  and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, 
  and your young men shall see visions, 
  and your old men shall dream dreams; 
  18*yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days 
  I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. Acts 2:17–18
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve of them in all. Acts 19:5–7

(We understand this passage to be about Confirmation, at which time the gifts of the HS are imparted to the faithful.)

8On the morrow we departed and came to Caesarea; and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9And he had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied. Acts 21:8–10

(Were these women acting against God, Fran?)

4For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6*Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; Romans 12:4–7

If Jesus was the last prophet, why is Paul teaching about prophesy?

1Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but** he who prophesies edifies the church**. 5*Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. **He who prophesies is greater **than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6*Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how shall I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 1 Corinthians 14:1–7

Paul is encouraging the members of the body to exercise the gift of prophesy and talks about using it himself for the edification of the Church.

Fran, I strongly urge you to take the words of the Apostle to heart:

“do not despise prophesying” 1 Thessalonians 5:20–21

Maybe not proclaim it ceased before God is ready?
 
our Bible study-got into a discussion as to when ( if ever) there was an end to the role of Prophets ( Islam and Mormons please disregard) -the consensus was that Prophecy was fufilled with the Incarnation and the ministry of Jesus

the various appearances of the Virgin Mary where She delivered messages (secrets / requests) is this not Prophecy? was She not serving in part the Role of the Prophet-?

Thus is in effect Prophecy ongoing?
No it is being fulfilled, Our Blessed Mother is just reaffirming it +++
 
what I was trying to clear up is - in the Appearances of the Blessed Virgin and Her sayings this is not considered to be Prophecy- I get that -so what you are saying is that in these appearances She is really reaffirming what is already known? ? Why?
 
what I was trying to clear up is - in the Appearances of the Blessed Virgin and Her sayings this is not considered to be Prophecy
I’m honestly not aware of a Catholic position on that one way or the other. Can you provide citation?
 
Guanophore,

Would you say that if we say that prophecy can be ongoing, it might create such men as C.T. Russell, Muhammad, J. Smith, etc.?

I always was taught that Jesus is the last revelation to man and that there is to be no more prophecy in the O.T. or N.T. sense of the word - as a divinely given gift or as an oracle of God.

A person could prophesy in the sense that they can speak God’s word, but there can be no NEW revelation - only old revelation that could be understood better.

You’ve said this 100X yourself re doctrines and dogmas.

Fran
 
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Guanophore,
Would you say that if we say that prophecy can be ongoing, it might create such men as C.T. Russell, Muhammad, J. Smith, etc.?
I don’t believe that prophesies from God “create such men”. But the Word of God can be misused by anyone for a variety of reasons.
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 I always was taught that Jesus is the last revelation to man and that there is to be no more prophecy in the O.T. or N.T. sense of the word - as a divinely given gift or as an oracle of God.
I have been taught this too, with one qualifier, that being PUBLIC revelation. God has continued to reveal Himself individually to persons, and the prophetic gift is still active in the Church (see post 4 with scripture citations). Do you honestly believe that these scriptures are referring to something that is not a divinely given gift?
A person could prophesy in the sense that they can speak God’s word, but there can be no NEW revelation - only old revelation that could be understood better.
And some qualifiers for this as well. For example, the Church approves the revelations made at Fatima, but they are not considered part of the once for all divine deposit of faith (public revelation) and are not required to be accepted by individuals the way the public revelation is. Any such private prophesies need to be consistent with what has already been revealed, which is why the church takes a good long time to examine them.
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You've said this 100X yourself re doctrines and dogmas.
Fran
And here I thought you were ignoring my posts. 😉

The gift of prophesy is alive and well in the Church until the second coming.
 
I don’t believe that prophesies from God “create such men”. But the Word of God can be misused by anyone for a variety of reasons.

I have been taught this too, with one qualifier, that being PUBLIC revelation. God has continued to reveal Himself individually to persons, and the prophetic gift is still active in the Church (see post 4 with scripture citations). Do you honestly believe that these scriptures are referring to something that is not a divinely given gift?

And some qualifiers for this as well. For example, the Church approves the revelations made at Fatima, but they are not considered part of the once for all divine deposit of faith (public revelation) and are not required to be accepted by individuals the way the public revelation is. Any such private prophesies need to be consistent with what has already been revealed, which is why the church takes a good long time to examine them.

And here I thought you were ignoring my posts. 😉

The gift of prophesy is alive and well in the Church until the second coming.
The three men I mentioned, Russel, Muhammad and Smith didn’t twist the word of God. They made up new rules and regulations.

In the O.T. and ending with John the Baptist, the work of a prophet was an OFFICE. it was an official designation and divinely given by God. We could have prophets speaking today but it cannot be NEW revelation.

The matter of public and private is totally different. I’d hope that private revelation goes on all the time. But, as you said, it shouldn’t be made public, unless in very limited circumstances to prove a point, or edity, something of that nature.

Regarding Fatima, I can’t recall any new prophecy there either. Didn’t Daniel speak of a nation, maybe Russia. I dislike Daniel and Revelation a bit and don’t dwell on it so I can’t remember well, but it does seem to me that it was spoken of. Regarding how it would change, I mean. If you’d have something to add to this?

Fran
P.S. Scott Hahn compares Revelation to the Mass: “The Lord’s Supper” - very good.
 
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