The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church?

[Stylteralmaldo]

Theotokos and Ever-Virgin are primitive teachings. The other two, not so much. To argue that they are is an argument from silence.

I’m not sure what you mean by primitive. If by primitive you mean that it was believed by the early church, I find that both the Orthodox and Catholic churches believe Mary went to heaven bodily and have believed this since the early church. As far as the Immaculate Conception, early church fathers referred to Mary as the new Eve which is in part a basis for the teaching.

TriuneUnity:

It’s more than that, though. If a teaching is not true, yet believers are required to adhere to it, they are being required to adhere to a teaching that isn’t true.

I guess it comes down to whether or not someone trusts the source. In your case, that would be the Catholic Church.

TriuneUnity:

Yes, absolutely. With the latter two Marian dogmas and the co-mediatrix/redemptrix doctrines… I don’t believe there’s sufficient certainty either from Scripture or the apostolic deposit (which I believe to be coinherent with Scripture).

Personally, I do believe the teaching of Mary’s bodily resurrection to have been believed from the early Church with the Orthodox teaching her dormition (she died and rose bodily after her death - although as doctrine, not necessarily defined dogma) and the Catholic church defining dogmatically that she was assumed (not defined whether she died or not, but rose bodily) into heaven. Also, I believe the evidence is there regarding the Immaculate Conception. Whether it’s “sufficient certainty” I guess is in the eye of the beholder. I have come to believe in the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix and would take no issue with a dogmatic declaration. As far as Co-Redemtrix is concerned, I admit I have not been led through prayer and study to come to any conclusion regarding that teaching. Thus far, my thoughts have not been opposed to the teaching doctrinally.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I’m not sure what you mean by primitive. If by primitive you mean that it was believed by the early church, I find that both the Orthodox and Catholic churches believe Mary went to heaven bodily and have believed this since the early church. As far as the Immaculate Conception, early church fathers referred to Mary as the new Eve which is in part a basis for the teaching.

I have found no real, verifiable data that the assumption was believed widely at all in the early church. You will, of course, find anecdotal information, such as the quote that I posted on the assumption thread. Other than that one vague allusion, it simply isn’t there.

As to the Immaculate Conception, I think you will find fathers who say that Mary did not sin. You will, though, find fathers who say that she did sin (such as Chrysostom and Basil). I don’t think her conception per se, was addressed. A lot of that may have to do with the early church not having a clear understanding of original sin until Augustine.

I guess it comes down to whether or not someone trusts the source. In your case, that would be the Catholic Church.

It’s not that I don’t trust the source. I don’t trust the evidence that the source has put forward. I also don’t trust unilateral pronouncements of dogma without any participation from the rest of the church catholic. While I do not believe that Rome is the pure successor to the ancient catholic church, it is in some continuity with it. So I don’t just immediately discount whatever it says.