The Book of Mormon? What support is there that this is a true revelation?

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I am surprised to say that I have not seen much on the Book of Mormon and specifically the history and credibility of it, so I have a few questions and I hope this discussion develops into an enlightening study of the book, not a bash party.

First off, for the mormons on the forum:
-Do you trust the book of Mormon because of the tradition passed to you by the mormon church before you? or has it proven itself in your own understanding of it?

-How much emphasis do you apply to the book of Mormon? Is it equal with the Bible in infallibility?

-Is it the full story to say that Joseph Smith transcribed the book of Mormon from a ‘peep stone’ in his hat and no one else other than him could read or translate from it? Or is there more to the transmission of the book into writing.

And for the non-Mormon (or Mormon) who knows a fair amount about the book:
-I have heard there are historical discrepancies in the book of Mormon. What are these discrepancies? And how damaging are they to the books credibility?

-Does anyone think the book of Mormon blatantly contradicts the Bible and in subsequently could not be reasonably used together?
 
There were 12 witnesses to the Book of Morman(BOM) plainly listed in the BOM. Well make that 4 since 8 of the 12 listed in the BOM later admitted they lied (i.e. never saw the ‘golden plates’). So we have at least 4 witnesses to verify it though no independent source.

The first book in the BOM was actually hidden by a woman. She asked that the great prophet Joesph Smith translate it again - word for word - to prove that he was not making it up on the go. Needless to say the book is still missing from the BOM since it was never ‘retranslated’. Mr. Smith said basically said it would be an insult to translate it again and that the BOM would be better left incomplete by missing the first book which it still lacks to this day.

And the BOM clearly states the the Bible - at least the AKJV - is complete, the BOM just expands on the Bible.
 
There were 12 witnesses to the Book of Morman(BOM) plainly listed in the BOM. Well make that 4 since 8 of the 12 listed in the BOM later admitted they lied (i.e. never saw the ‘golden plates’). So we have at least 4 witnesses to verify it though no independent source.

The first book in the BOM was actually hidden by a woman. She asked that the great prophet Joesph Smith translate it again - word for word - to prove that he was not making it up on the go. Needless to say the book is still missing from the BOM since it was never ‘retranslated’. Mr. Smith said basically said it would be an insult to translate it again and that the BOM would be better left incomplete by missing the first book which it still lacks to this day.

And the BOM clearly states the the Bible - at least the AKJV - is complete, the BOM just expands on the Bible.
So, a mormon will say that the book of Mormon (I’ll take on your BOM from now on) does not contradict the Bible in any way, since it expands upon it.

Is it not true that the untranslatable language from the document that Joseph Smith came across is actually able to be partially translated these days and we know they are not what Joe Smith said they are?

Any more info on the document?
 
Is it not true that the untranslatable language from the document that Joseph Smith came across is actually able to be partially translated these days and we know they are not what Joe Smith said they are?

Any more info on the document?
You’re thinking about the Book of Abraham, here’s something I posted awhile back on that:

The Book of Abraham is part of the Pearl of Great Price, which along with the Bible (as long as it is correctly translated), the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, form the Standard Works, i.e., the canonical books of Mormon scripture. The Book of Abraham is a source of some significant Mormon teachings, such as the plurality of gods, the pre-mortal existence of all people, and the doctrine of eternal progression (men become gods). You can read it in its entirely by visiting the LDS website.

In 1835, a traveling showman arrived in Kirkland, Ohio with some Egyptian mummies and some papyrus rolls of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Joseph Smith, then in residence in Kirkland, claimed he could translate the hieroglyphics (at this time untranslatable by Egyptologists) and the whole exhibit was purchased from the showman. Smith claimed that the scrolls were written in “Reformed Egyptian,” the same language as the golden plates; which were the source material for the Book of Mormon. Smith claimed that one of the scrolls contained the writings of Abraham (THE Abraham) written by himself, in his own hand. Smith translated the Reformed Egyptian and that translation became the Book of Abraham. The scrolls were lost shortly thereafter and the Book of Abraham was canonized as Mormon scripture.

In 1966, the original material was found in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, in New York. Egyptologists, who by 1966 could read hieroglyphics, stated that was a common Egyptian funerary text dating from around the time of Christ; some 2,000 after the time of Abraham, and that the real translation bore no resemblance to that of Smith.
 
I am surprised to say that I have not seen much on the Book of Mormon and specifically the history and credibility of it, so I have a few questions and I hope this discussion develops into an enlightening study of the book, not a bash party.
We have hashed the BOM to bits previously. Sort of exhausted the subject. I would suggest that you do some reading on past Mormon-related threads.👍
They don’t even discuss BOM-related issues at exmormon.org any more. 😃
 
One discrepancy is the use of metals and metalurgy centuries before their time, also the complete lack of evidence that any metals and techniques were used (not even a single steel arrow head or coin or buckle has been found). You would think that with the ammount of epic battles that happened, we would be able to find a steel sword, a steel spearhead, parts of steel armor, bits of a charriot.

Another is the crops that were farmed, they didnt exist in the new world until much later.

There are quite a few discrepancies, like the complete lack of ruins of any sort (there were meant to be thriving cities), but I think the biggest one is the BoM itself.

Its meant to be inspired by God with He and moroni helping with the translation, yet there have been a number of changes to it (something like 3-4000). If God helped Joseph Smith translate it and wanted it to be readable by everyone, why did he do such a terrible job?

There are really only two conclusions that you can make:

1; God is faliable and incompetent and you just have to take the i off the end of moronis name.

2; The BoM isnt from God and is therefore false.

I will leave you to come to your own conclusion with that. I have posed this issue to several mormons (and looked on their official web sites) and none of them will address this issue.
 
If God helped Joseph Smith translate [the BOM] and wanted it to be readable by everyone, why did he do such a terrible job?

There are really only two conclusions that you can make:

1; God is faliable and incompetent and you just have to take the i off the end of moronis name.

2; The BoM isnt from God and is therefore false.

I will leave you to come to your own conclusion with that. I have posed this issue to several mormons (and looked on their official web sites) and none of them will address this issue.
'Sounds like you bear a bit of Mormon contempt… anti-Mormonism? Are you an ex-Mormon?
 
Yes, there are several contradications. One big one I found is that “their” Jesus devoted an entire chapter on the evils of baptising infants. Yet in the true bible this is not an issue. Infant baptism did not become an issue until after the Reformation which dates the BOM to after that time. Another is that Jesus never identified himself as “Jesus Christ” in the bible. Yet in the BOM when he appears for the first time he says “I am Jesus Christ”.
The BOM should never be used along side the bible as one is true and inspired by God and the other is a product of a man inspired only by himself.
 
And the BOM clearly states the the Bible - at least the AKJV - is complete, the BOM just expands on the Bible.
I think you meant to say that the BOM teaches that the bible is incomplete.

Paul
 
Hi cascherman,

I ( Catholic ) went on a LDS forum for about 3 weeks to try and gain some perspective of LDS directly from LDS.

It was very interesting to me that this " historical discrepancies "
( an understatement in my humble opinion ) was always deflected to a " personal testimony " that by praying as Moroni suggests you will know that the BOM is true.

In addition, it was also very interesting that the LDS that did not recieve the " burning in the belly " or answers of the BOM " truth",
It was VERY STRONGLY implied that they were not praying for this affirmation in the " right " way or that their hearts were not ready or willing to recieve this testiomony. ( VERY SAD and seems to lend alot of pressure to those LDS who have not recieved this affirmation they all seek)

Among the MANY LDS roots, the " historical discrepancies of the BOM " is filled with an unexplainable lack evidence of it’s claims.
( honey bees, not here until much later in history ) ( farm crops that were not here until much later ) ( an enormous " last battle " that exterminated the Nephites, thousands died, swords, breast plates, chariot wheels, etc, with NO artifacts at all ) and the list goes on.

At ant rate, my 2 cents

God bless,
Carl
 
Oh my favorite is that the word BIBLE is in the book of Mormon and when you look on the bottom it is B.C. The Mormons need to learn how to look at a history book and figure out when the bible actually came about

google errors in the book of mormon 👍

christiandefense.org/mor_book.htm
 
Oh my favorite is that the word BIBLE is in the book of Mormon and when you look on the bottom it is B.C. The Mormons need to learn how to look at a history book and figure out when the bible actually came about

google errors in the book of mormon 👍

christiandefense.org/mor_book.htm
3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
• • •
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
• • •
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
  • 2 Nephi 29:3-4,6,10 (559-545 BC)
That’s right Patty. As the Mormons make excuses for the Book of Mormon they keep digging themselves in deeper. The word “bible” is a good example. I’ll explain:

One of the many anachronisms in the Book of Mormon (BoM) is the purported existence of horses in pre-columbian America. The Mormons are now saying that the “horses” in the BoM are not really horses at all but deer or tapirs. They say that the Reformed Egyptian language did not have a word for deer or tapir, so they expanded the meaning of “horse” to include deer and tapirs.

The problem with this line of thinking is: Why couldn’t God give Joseph Smith the correct word for deer or tapir during the translation of “the most correct book on earth”? If God gave Joseph English words for which no Reformed Egyptian equivalent could have existed in 545 BC (i.e.: “bible”), then why could He not have provided Joseph with the words “deer” and “tapir” instead of confusing everyone by translating the word as “horse”?

Paul
 
We don’t discuss the Book of Mormon much here simply because it is so obviously a fraud.

No need to discuss it.

What I am concerned about is the effects that the BOM has had on American culture, and the cultures of other countries.
 
I am surprised to say that I have not seen much on the Book of Mormon and specifically the history and credibility of it, so I have a few questions and I hope this discussion develops into an enlightening study of the book, not a bash party.

First off, for the mormons on the forum:
-Do you trust the book of Mormon because of the tradition passed to you by the mormon church before you? or has it proven itself in your own understanding of it?

-How much emphasis do you apply to the book of Mormon? Is it equal with the Bible in infallibility?

-Is it the full story to say that Joseph Smith transcribed the book of Mormon from a ‘peep stone’ in his hat and no one else other than him could read or translate from it? Or is there more to the transmission of the book into writing.

And for the non-Mormon (or Mormon) who knows a fair amount about the book:
-I have heard there are historical discrepancies in the book of Mormon. What are these discrepancies? And how damaging are they to the books credibility?

-Does anyone think the book of Mormon blatantly contradicts the Bible and in subsequently could not be reasonably used together?
Interestingly, the BoM historically has mostly been used in Mormonism as proof that Joseph Smith is a prophet, that is, how could an ignorant farm boy come up with something so wonderful? It wasn’t until the last 30 yrs or so that the contents of the BoM have been emphasized as useful for teaching. There’s a reason for that: the theology of the BoM is modalist, while Mormonism today is polytheistic, that is because Joseph Smith’s own theological views dramatically altered over the span of his short life.

As far as problems with the BoM, there are many, including multiple anachronisms. Honestly the biggest problem with the BoM is that there is zero evidence for his gigantic claims. Joseph Smith taught that the BoM claimed there were large Israelite populations all over the American continents and that they built large cities. There is zero evidence for any of this. Mormons are taught to rely on subjective warm fuzzies for their confirmation of the truth and ignore the fact that the most likely explanation is that Joseph Smith was perpetrating a fraud.

I should also add that the Mormon canon includes four books: the Bible, the BoM, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
 
If I were not so amused at your short-sightedness and interesting assumptions regarding anachronisms and what was and what wasn’t on the American Continents during the time of the Book of Mormon peoples, I would be frustrated to tears.

I am not going to waste my time to burn all the dross out of your posts. I simply want to say that there are very reasonable explanations (not excuses, but explanations) to every point that has been brought up in this thread. I do not feel threatened in my faith in the Book of Mormon’s validity at all. And I don’t consider myself stupid, ignorant, or brain-washed, either. What a thought! That a college-educated person could actually believe this stuff even though there’s such obvious errors! The truth is, the “errors” you have so “exhaustively” proved, if true errors, would have brought nearly all the learned believers to doubt and leave the Church. And yet they remain, even after reading Catholic Answers Forums.

I recommend fairlds.org and farms.byu.edu to do some research yourself on these matters. These are just starting places since there are many more scholarly books and journals that you can use to find the reasoning behind words,etc.

Here I will give you a clue to understand many of the things you ignorantly dismiss as anachronisms: remember the purpose of translation is to take some concept from a foreign language and say or write the same idea or concept in the common language. Thus, a collection of the writings of the prophets in Israel containing Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc., would be known in the common language today as the Bible! It’s not a word-by-word translation, but a concept-by-concept translation! Understand that Joseph Smith was “seeing” (as a Seer would do) the text in a vision-like experience where he would then speak the record’s teachings and events in terms that he would understand. If he saw an animal that resembled a horse but he didn’t know what it really was, he would say it was a horse! Don’t set up a straw-man argument saying this is what a translation is (“gratis”=“grace”) when Joseph Smith claimed his translation was (the idea of grace=the idea of grace). Remember, the text itself said to not dismiss it because of the errors of men or the errors of the change of language over time since the translation of the Book of Mormon (like if Joseph Smith said they had tools of steel, which was the common term for any metal during Smith’s day and the Bessemer process to create steel hadn’t been invented until after Joseph Smith had already published the Book of Mormon with the word “steel” in it). If it was a true anachronism, it would still be evidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet, since he prophesied the invention of steel before it came about!

I know the Book of Mormon is true. I’ve read it over a dozen times. I’ve studied it looking for errors, looking for answers, looking for reasons to doubt and reasons to believe. I know it’s true because unlike all of its critics I didn’t dismiss the evidences for it, historical, textual, contextual, and spiritual. We are still discovering great evidences for it, including the city of Nahom described in 1 Nephi and chiasmus all throughout the text as well as a more correct version of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount in line with Jewish customs, traditions, and celebrations than the New Testament.

I do not just rely on whether I “feel” good about it. I know it’s true in my mind as well as my soul. I encourage you to stop looking for reasons to doubt it and start looking for reasons to believe it and I promise you will be surprised that the reasons you doubted it will be explained and the reasons to believe it will become clear to you. Now, if you’re too insecure in your own faith to try then by all means go ahead and prove your ignorance to the whole world by saying things like, “it’s so clear it’s false there’s no reason to discuss it” and “there’s no historical or archeological evidence for it.” Be my guest! If you really want to know, just try the promise in Moroni 10:3-5 to study it with faith in Christ and with “real intent”–not ‘doubtful intent’ or ‘Catholic-Apologist intent.’ Then, once you have thoroughly studied it, you can ask yourself, “What is left to outweigh the evidence I have for this book that would cause me to believe it is not true?” Then, if you struggle answering that question there is one final promise the Bible does not have: to ask God if it’s not true and He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the Holy Ghost’s power.

Or you can trick yourself into thinking that what others “dug up” in Anti-LDS websites is reliable enough to place your eternal soul on its altar.

I know the Book of Mormon is God’s word. The Great Apostasy happened. That’s what’s so threatening to you, isn’t it? If the Book of Mormon is true, it means Joseph Smith was a prophet. And that means the claim that Joseph Smith made to restore the Church of Jesus Christ means there was an apostasy from the early church. Well, it’s true. I’ve heard all the junk you could share in reply so don’t bother. I know God has chosen men again to be seers in our time.
 
If you really want to know, just try the promise in Moroni 10:3-5 to study it with faith in Christ and with “real intent”–not ‘doubtful intent’ or ‘Catholic-Apologist intent.’
We do read the Mormon books with real intent and with faith in Jesus Christ; the problem is, the book includes so many lies and words put in Jesus’ mouth that we can’t even help but know it’s not a holy book. I mean, seriously, polytheism? How in the world is that compatible with the oneness of God? Answer: It isn’t!

Why don’t you take God’s dare? He dared Job to show Him he was a god, and if he showed he was a god, He would be the first to bow down to him. Take the dare, prove that your gods exist.
Then, once you have thoroughly studied it, you can ask yourself, “What is left to outweigh the evidence I have for this book that would cause me to believe it is not true?” Then, if you struggle answering that question there is one final promise the Bible does not have: to ask God if it’s not true and He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the Holy Ghost’s power.
No, He won’t. But you will be opening the door to demonic influence. Satan loves to confuse people and testify against God, so he’ll give you “warm feelings” or “inner peace” about the Book of Mormons. But you’ll percieve it as God’s power, because that’s what you believe.

But I challenge you to take God’s dare.
 
We do read the Mormon books with real intent and with faith in Jesus Christ; the problem is, the book includes so many lies and words put in Jesus’ mouth that we can’t even help but know it’s not a holy book. I mean, seriously, polytheism? How in the world is that compatible with the oneness of God? Answer: It isn’t!

Why don’t you take God’s dare? He dared Job to show Him he was a god, and if he showed he was a god, He would be the first to bow down to him. Take the dare, prove that your gods exist.

No, He won’t. But you will be opening the door to demonic influence. Satan loves to confuse people and testify against God, so he’ll give you “warm feelings” or “inner peace” about the Book of Mormons. But you’ll percieve it as God’s power, because that’s what you believe.

But I challenge you to take God’s dare.
You reject “feelings” because you say Satan confuses people with feelings? I do not feel confused at all! In fact, Satan is very good with scriptures and can use scripture to prove the points he wants just as easily as feelings. Jesus didn’t present His apostles with a volume of scriptures or creeds for them to pour over with the help of historians; he promised them to send the Holy Ghost to teach them after he was gone. If you reject the Holy Ghost in my life, what keeps you from believing the Apostles were really writing under the inspiration of the devil? So your teacher reads a verse of scripture and mixes it with a little of his religion’s view on history and convinces you that that is the truth! To me, it hints at spiritual scholasticism. It assumes that God is dead, or else he must be sleeping, for it is based on the belief that all knowledge about God is in the past! Otherwise he would answer prayers with power.

I already know it would be pointless to “prove” to you that the Trinity is a falsehood, even though I could use logic and scripture to do so easily. Jesus commanded us to not cast our pearls before swine. Since it seems you are so close-minded and have already come to a conclusion for yourself (and will probably give some nasty reply to this comment), I perceive you are in the “swine” category.
 
There is nothing new in the Book of Mormon.

However, studying it can enlighten people to these aspects of American History:
  1. American racism of the early 19th century and the distorted religion that justified it.
  2. The chaos of Native North America in the two centuries preceding 1492, and the reasons why tribes, weakened, divided and embittered by the previous Viking invasion, lacked the resources to appropriately react to the reinvasion. The renewal of epidemics, with a death toll again in the millions, increased the anger.
  3. The consequences of racism.
  4. The true nature of God and the true mission of Jesus and His followers can be seen by an objective study of the literature of people who misunderstand both, or fear to openly criticize the abuse of religion.
Hiawatha, of Native legend, was a prophet who drew from his Christian Norse heritage to warn his adopted Native people of an impending re-invasion. See the character “Samuel the Lamanite” and Moroni’s lament 9:18-20

I see the Book of Mormon as a satire on the Jewish origins theory, and I see prophecies of the end of Mormonism in the Book of Mormon.

THIS is my personal witness of the Book of Mormon.
 
Smith claimed the gold plates were written in “Reformed Egyptian”. There is no evidence of this language. No one in the Americas whose language has the same roots as Egyptian. There are no contemporary writings in this non-existent language.

The BoM has a lot of plagiarisms, directly from the KJV of the Bible. The original translation of the BoM also has many colloquialisms of the day. So in essence, God gave Smith a translation that was a mixture of Early Middle English (the language of Shakespeare and the KJV) and frontier American English of the early-mid 19th century.

And then there is the translation process itself. The LDS church official position is that he used a urim and thummim to translate. He would dictate the translation to someone else who acted as a scribe.

Yet, we have first hand accounts of people who say Smith put his magic rock in a hat (the same rock he used for treasure hunting). Putting his head into his hat to block the light out, he would then dictate what he saw in his hat.
 
It assumes that God is dead, or else he must be sleeping, for it is based on the belief that all knowledge about God is in the past! Otherwise he would answer prayers with power.
This is what your church has taught you, which, has nothing to do with truth.

The New Testament is a fruit of the Catholic Church. Do you believe the Holy Spirit guided the Church in its preservation, selection and propagation of Catholic Scripture? If not, why do you trust the authority of the Catholic Church enough to use its scriptures?
I already know it would be pointless to “prove” to you that the Trinity is a falsehood, even though I could use logic and scripture to do so easily. Jesus commanded us to not cast our pearls before swine. Since it seems you are so close-minded and have already come to a conclusion for yourself (and will probably give some nasty reply to this comment), I perceive you are in the “swine” category.
Disproving the Trinity is casting pearls before swine? Interesting twist.

We’re waiting. Cast away.
 
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