The bravest Muslim girl..

[rtconstant]

*it’s now clear on which side you are in ,you identify yourself with a secular Jew, an unscarfed Muslim woman , a lesbian liberal Muslim woman…
and you dislike a scarfed muslim woman and a religious Jew

She doesn’t dislike them she pities them.

*and how insulting to call me “mus”…very kind of you and dolphinlove

That is understandable. I had actually assumed it was a typo, maybe not though.

• I’m surprised that no Catholic here stood in defense to Shin ,really shame

Well its just a medieval out look. Morality is an internal struggle. If a man looks upon a woman and feels lust, the problem lies in the man not in the woman regardless of her dress. To be honest if a man cannot even look at a womans face without feelings of lust that is shameful.

• After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, ***both ***were ashamed of their visible nakedness in the presence of God…they ***both ***covered themselves

So it is your belief that God sinned by letting Adam and Eve walk around in state they should have been ashamed of? Considering that it primarily men who seem to be hung up on these issues, I do not think it is much of a leap to say that this was Adam’s issue, Eve simply went along with it so as to not be judged. However, we are both speculating at a certain level here.

this should be our model…as God is watching us ,we should be ashamed of nakedness and we should be covered…the Quran tells both man and woman to cover and lower their gaze

Then Muslim men should lower eyes and wear veils.

*edited for grammar

 

[tomarin]

Then why don’t muslim men wear burqas or hijabs too?

Because that would be cross-dressing.

 

[Booklover]

This thread has become ridiculous. Why are we all arguing over different culturally-informed standards of dress? If Sam thinks that a nun’s habit is better to preserve the modesty of a woman than the burqa or hijab, then what is the problem? Frankly, I agree with him. Is it that he is a man, so having an opinion is somehow being “unfair” to women? I don’t understand. Modesty is everybody’s business. I thought that the point of the hijab being a “problem” is not that women are wearing it starting at a young age (Orthodox women do too!), but that they are forced to wear it by social custom and risk injury and insult if they do not, so that it ceases to be a statement about their personal commitment to modesty and piety and is instead done in order to avoid punishment from the wicked earthly authorities that act as God at all times in the Islamic lands. Am I wrong here?

I don’t see a problem with that sign that Hadi posted. It is just requesting that women observe the local religious dress code when they are in the neighbhorhood…not really that much different than asking your son or daughter (or husband or wife, for that matter!) to dress in a clean, modest way for Mass. That is our religious custom (or it should be), borne of our love for and fidelity to God. Who can honestly object to it?

I totally agree with you that this thread has become ridiculous! We seem to have gone from one extreme to the other. As far as our friend Sam is concerned, we have to remember that he is from Saudi Arabia and still has a lot of the Muslim mindset. Though as a woman I do not agree with his choice of a nun’s habit as the appropriate style for all women to wear, or Shin’s idea that we dress like the Virgin Mary, we have to realize that as Christian women we are required to dress modestly and that common sense should dictate what is modest and what isn’t.

While I most certainly believe in the freedom that we women here in the west have to choose what we want to wear, with that same freedom comes responsibility and I am surprised and disturbed by the comments made by some of my fellow women. Though Shin’s remark about the bikini may not have been diplomatic, it should not have subjected him to the diatribe heaped on him. Neither has he responded in kind.

At times it seems some women posters blame the man for everything no matter what the woman wears. We should never be occasions of sin to anyone and many of the fashions of today are extremely provocative. Neither do I agree with Grace’s statement that a man will always look at a woman sexually no matter what she wears. That’s like saying why bother to be modest!

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say on the subject of modesty:

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

I also do not agree with those who claim that God does not care what we wear, and we have Our Lady’s words to the children at Fatima to testify to that:

“Fashions that will greatly offend Our Lord will appear. People who serve God should not follow fashions. The Church has no fashions. Our Lord is always the same.”

As a woman, I’m very ashamed at the way some women dress to come to Mass and elsewhere for that matter. What’s happened to us as a society? I’ve seen a top heavy woman come to her son’s first communion dressed in what looked like a slip with lots of cleavage and her breasts practically hanging out all over the place. And what of the husband who didn’t even seem to care that his wife came out looking like that? And what about the mothers who don’t seem to care what their daughters wear either? And it’s even more disturbing when *Christianity *is blamed for such things!

Vickie

 

[GraceDK]

I

At times it seems some women posters blame the man for everything no matter what the woman wears. We should never be occasions of sin to anyone and many of the fashions of today are extremely provocative.

Neither do I agree with Grace’s statement that a man will always look at a woman sexually no matter what she wears. That’s like saying why bother to be modest!

Vickie

Vickie.
You are misquoting me. I don’t think thats really fair of you.
What I clearly stated is that a men will always look at women with lust, if he intends to, no matter how covered she is… Like muslim men who look at hair as a sexual thing… some places in the Middle East woman are harrassed also sexually and called whores if they dont cover totally. In Malaysia a few years back a case was made by Muslim men that they could not concentrate on their prayers because of women wearin immodest clothes.
In the victorian age an ancle was seen as sexually arousing and women were deemed immodest if they showed it… In old china to touch an ear or lower leg of a woman was seen as highly arousing.
In Hirsi Ali’s book she says how the argument of modesty is taken to more and more extremes in some cultures where first the neck is seen as arousing, then the hair, then the mouth, then the eyes, and lastly the hands. Even when all is covered, there appears to be no more respect for women in those cultures. On the contrary.
Thats why I advocate a balance and practice balance in my own life according to what i find to be a balance. (Shin and his likes might fight me challenging all the time) and freedom.

As for your second statement I dont believe a person per se can constitute a near occasion of sin. This topic I have debated before. I still hold the same.
Human Person = Near occasion of sin … No, this is not correct and cannot be. A persons actions, if they go into the spere of your personal freedom, can be an occasion of unwished thoughts of anger or temptation to dwell on something-. But lust is already a sin. There is no lust where there is no primary consent.

Let there be no mistake about it. I am all for modesty for men and women equally (and I see the problem as equal for men and women) but I will not consent to blaming men for the sins of women or vice versa. Also i accept that people are free. If a woman wants to wear cleavage, or a man goes without a shirt which they do quite a lot here, thats their own choice and I have no business judging their motives.

Peace.

 

[GraceDK]

I As a woman, I’m very ashamed at the way some women dress to come to Mass and elsewhere for that matter. What’s happened to us as a society? I’ve seen a top heavy woman come to her son’s first communion dressed in what looked like a slip with lots of cleavage and her breasts practically hanging out all over the place. And what of the husband who didn’t even seem to care that his wife came out looking like that? And what about the mothers who don’t seem to care what their daughters wear either? And it’s even more disturbing when *Christianity *is blamed for such things!

Vickie

If the Church was effective re-evangelised a lot would change in both language, habits, thinking and attire within the Church. As long as a huge percentage of Catholics have abortions, contraception, porn and fornication as reality of sin in their life, we are talking only about a symptom of much bigger issues, when we speak about lack of modesty.
Its my honest oppinion that if people are truly preached the gospel (including the call to repent) a lot of things will change.
as for your last line. Beware who blames Christianity. I am not saying we are guiltless, but someone should not try to remove the splinter in the eye of Christians if his own religion follows a phedophile …

 

[Shin]

You’re contradicting Popes, Cardinals, Scripture, the Catechism…

I have no more to say. I am bowing out. I walk away.

I hope and pray someday you are willing to put aside your personal interpretations and religion and follow whatever Christ tells you. This is faith. You may not understand it, and he may later allow you to understand – but to do otherwise is not faith.

And people who act such do not follow Christ, they go elsewhere and pay a penalty.

I do not want this for anyone.

God bless the modest.

I think all that needs be said as been said.

There’re some good sermons on modesty on the sites below, and our duties to avoid near occasions of sin and not be so to others for the sake of the love of Christ. God bless and thank you women who are modest. Please always strive to be at the pinnacle of this virtue and never let it slide.

Ave Maria.

 

[Booklover]

Vickie.
You are misquoting me. I don’t think thats really fair of you.
What I clearly stated is that a men will always look at women with lust, if he intends to, no matter how covered she is… Like muslim men who look at hair as a sexual thing… some places in the Middle East woman are harrassed also sexually and called whores if they dont cover totally. In Malaysia a few years back a case was made by Muslim men that they could not concentrate on their prayers because of women wearin immodest clothes.
In the victorian age an ancle was seen as sexually arousing and women were deemed immodest if they showed it… In old china to touch an ear or lower leg of a woman was seen as highly arousing.
In Hirsi Ali’s book she says how the argument of modesty is taken to more and more extremes in some cultures where first the neck is seen as arousing, then the hair, then the mouth, then the eyes, and lastly the hands. Even when all is covered, there appears to be no more respect for women in those cultures. On the contrary.
Thats why I advocate a balance and practice balance in my own life according to what i find to be a balance. (Shin and his likes might fight me challenging all the time) and freedom.

I realize and agree that men in Muslim countries are fanatical and cannot control their emotions and also agree that many things that were considered taboo years ago no longer are, neither should they be, but that still does not excuse going completely to the other end of the scale as we see so often now.

As for your second statement I dont believe a person per se can constitute a near occasion of sin. This topic I have debated before. I still hold the same.
Human Person = Near occasion of sin … No, this is not correct and cannot be. A persons actions, if they go into the spere of your personal freedom, can be an occasion of unwished thoughts of anger or temptation to dwell on something-. But lust is already a sin. There is no lust where there is no primary consent.

Let there be no mistake about it. I am all for modesty for men and women equally (and I see the problem as equal for men and women) but I will not consent to blaming men for the sins of women or vice versa. Also i accept that people are free. If a woman wants to wear cleavage, or a man goes without a shirt which they do quite a lot here, thats their own choice and I have no business judging their motives.

Peace.

Unless a man is a sicko, there is no reason for him to look at a modestly dressed woman with lust! Don’t equate all men with the sickness we see in the Muslim religion.

If you cannot see that what a woman wears can cause a man to lust, there is nothing more I can say. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

If the Church was effective re-evangelised a lot would change in both language, habits, thinking and attire within the Church. As long as a huge percentage of Catholics have abortions, contraception, porn and fornication as reality of sin in their life, we are talking only about a symptom of much bigger issues, when we speak about lack of modesty.
Its my honest oppinion that if people are truly preached the gospel (including the call to repent) a lot of things will change.
as for your last line. Beware who blames Christianity. I am not saying we are guiltless, but someone should not try to remove the splinter in the eye of Christians if his own religion follows a phedophile …

Aren’t you now blaming the Church for the choices we make with our own free will? Weren’t we warned plenty at Fatima? Have people mended their ways? You can’t have it both ways. In the end, we are all responsible for our actions and the choices we make.

Vickie

 

[GraceDK]

Aren’t you now blaming the Church for the choices we make with our own free will? Weren’t we warned plenty at Fatima? Have people mended their ways? You can’t have it both ways. In the end, we are all responsible for our actions and the choices we make.

Vickie

Jesus said: “If you didn’t see, you didn’t have sin. But now you say you see. In sin you remain”.
We cannot demand from heathens to know and follow the Gospel of Christ if it has not been preached to them. So too in the Church, we have a lot of Sunday Christians who do however come on sunday… if then on Sunday there is given a humanist liberal talk that you could go hear at any humanist convention, then no, the people have not been preached to. Christ gave a comission to go out and evangelise the world…
I am aware that in America you have a tradition of good preaching also among Catholics, but in my country I have seen how devastating it is, when Catholic priests don’t preach the Gospel. Even I head one saying from the pulpit that evil spirits described in the NT were merely psychological phenomena. He also publicly slandered the new pope and the movie “The Passion”. . He should have known better.
As for a Christian man or women, they should act and dress and speak like Christians, not showing off their butts (male youth fashion) or breats.
Paul said: “How can they know if no one preaches to them?”

I fail to see the connection that you make. of course you must agree that sin is according to knowlege and intent. To me, modesty is a matter of conscience, culture, climate and history.

And yes, we must disagree. A person may lust when he/she notices something that could cause lust and thereafter does not divert their eyes. No one simply starts to lust at the second they notice a cleavage or the chest of a man…

Lastly I want to clarify this principle… the Fatima apparition belongs under private revelation. That means, it’s not binding to believe in everything that pertains to Fatima. I don’t appreciate being beaten in the head with quotes from Marian apparitions.
You might call to mind that Sr. Mary Alaqoque is canonized by the church. This does not mean I can quote her private revelation as a guideline… actually some of her actions would be considered repulsive to most religious today.

 

[GraceDK]

Unless a man is a sicko, there is no reason for him to look at a modestly dressed woman with lust! Don’t equate all men with the sickness we see in the Muslim religion.

.

Vickie

Some men on these boards admit to having viewed women in generel as mere objects in certain periods in their lives. These were men that used porn, by the way. Its likely there is a temptation or sickness in quite many normal men, a distorted longing for domination and agressive sexual conquest - I heard this latter point, by the way, from my priest who said men were inclined to this…

 

[Booklover]

Jesus said: “If you didn’t see, you didn’t have sin. But now you say you see. In sin you remain”.
We cannot demand from heathens to know and follow the Gospel of Christ if it has not been preached to them. So too in the Church, we have a lot of Sunday Christians who do however come on sunday… if then on Sunday there is given a humanist liberal talk that you could go hear at any humanist convention, then no, the people have not been preached to. Christ gave a comission to go out and evangelise the world…
I am aware that in America you have a tradition of good preaching also among Catholics, but in my country I have seen how devastating it is, when Catholic priests don’t preach the Gospel. Even I head one saying from the pulpit that evil spirits described in the NT were merely psychological phenomena. He also publicly slandered the new pope and the movie “The Passion”. . He should have known better.
As for a Christian man or women, they should act and dress and speak like Christians, not showing off their butts (male youth fashion) or breats.
Paul said: “How can they know if no one preaches to them?”

I fail to see the connection that you make. of course you must agree that sin is according to knowlege and intent. To me, modesty is a matter of conscience, culture, climate and history.

And yes, we must disagree. A person may lust when he/she notices something that could cause lust and thereafter does not divert their eyes. No one simply starts to lust at the second they notice a cleavage or the chest of a man…

Lastly I want to clarify this principle… the Fatima apparition belongs under private revelation. That means, it’s not binding to believe in everything that pertains to Fatima. I don’t appreciate being beaten in the head with quotes from Marian apparitions.
You might call to mind that Sr. Mary Alaqoque is canonized by the church. This does not mean I can quote her private revelation as a guideline… actually some of her actions would be considered repulsive to most religious today.

Please don’t accuse me now of trying to beat anyone on the head because I quoted from the Fatima revelations. They have been approved by the Church. Sorry if what I posted from them offended you. I have nothing more to say on the subject. As we already have seen, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Vickie

 

[Angel7]

the posts of some members here proves to me why Christianity is not compatible to the conservative values in some countries of the Arabian peninsula…Christianity will not enjoy great success in these countries unless it holds firmly to their conservative traditions. Islam holds firmly to the family values and moral living.

I heard Mohammed once said Women were the Majority of People in Hell
and that they were only half as intellectually and spiritually capable as men.
(Forgive and correct me if im wrong)
That would mean in a law suit it would take 2 women to equal 1 man. Imagine how horrible that would be if a poor Woman was raped, no other witnesses. Islam doesn’t treat women fairley.
(forgive and correct me if im wrong, I fell into non-denomination Propaganda a few months back, I now discover they are not inline with Catholic teaching )

 

[ZAKI]

I heard Mohammed once said Women were the Majority of People in Hell
and that they were only half as intellectually and spiritually capable as men.
(Forgive and correct me if im wrong)
That would mean in a law suit it would take 2 women to equal 1 man. Imagine how horrible that would be if a poor Woman was raped, no other witnesses. Islam doesn’t treat women fairley.
(forgive and correct me if im wrong, I fell into non-denomination Propaganda a few months back, I now discover they are not inline with Catholic teaching )

all this was incorrect. Christian propoganda??? yeah been there…my mum still listens to that bulldust and my dad always has to explain everything to her and point out things from the Quran (the whole passage-not just the verse that the christians have twisted into being negative).

wasalam

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

all this was incorrect. Christian propoganda???

No, harsh Muslim reality.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that** the majority of its dwellers were women** who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you.” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28; emphasis mine]

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.” [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301; emphasis mine]

Narrated Usama:
The Prophet said, “I stood at the gate of Paradise and saw that the majority of the people who entered it were the poor, while the wealthy were stopped at the gate (for the accounts). But the companions of the Fire were ordered to be taken to the Fire. Then I stood at the gate of the Fire and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women.” [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 124; emphasis mine]

 

[dzheremi]

Cue denial in 5, 4, 3, 2…

(“That’s ahadith, not Qur’an! Qur’an comes first! Hadith is unreliable/weak/faked! Islam elevates women most of any religion! What about in Christianity where it says…] Obviously Islam is better! Blahblahblahblahblah!”)

There. Now the only question will be which Muslim poster will spout the above nonsense at us because of what is in THEIR books. As Abuna Zakariya says on his TV show: If Muslims don’t like it, they should burn their books!

We don’t need to make propaganda against Islam. Islam is doing fine making itself look awful in its own texts.

 

[ZAKI]

No, harsh Muslim reality.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that** the majority of its dwellers were women** who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you.” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28; emphasis mine]

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.” [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301; emphasis mine]

Narrated Usama:
The Prophet said, “I stood at the gate of Paradise and saw that the majority of the people who entered it were the poor, while the wealthy were stopped at the gate (for the accounts). But the companions of the Fire were ordered to be taken to the Fire. Then I stood at the gate of the Fire and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women.” [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 124; emphasis mine]

Notice how I didn’t underline the one about more women going to hellfire then men in my post - I already knew that. I didn’t know however that 2 women equal to the witness of one man…I’ll post this on the muslim site that I go on and see their explanation.
btw dzheremi-that was a pretty funny post lollal

wasalam

 

[querying]

Cue denial in 5, 4, 3, 2…

(**“That’s ahadith, not Qur’an! Qur’an comes first! Hadith is unreliable/weak/faked! Islam elevates women most of any religion! **What about in Christianity where it says…] Obviously Islam is better! Blahblahblahblahblah!”)

There. Now the only question will be which Muslim poster will spout the above nonsense at us because of what is in THEIR books. As Abuna Zakariya says on his TV show: If Muslims don’t like it, they should burn their books!

We don’t need to make propaganda against Islam. Islam is doing fine making itself look awful in its own texts.

I couldn’t agree more. Such a backwards uncivilised religion. Although Muslims themselves, as individuals, seem to be very respectful people for the most part.