The catch-22 of indulgences

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Fizendell

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Just a thought - wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this:

Since coming home to the Church, I have learned a lot about indulgences, but I’m definitely no expert. As a child, I never heard of them, but they fascinate me now.

Without going into great detail, I’ll say that I’m not so focused on them that I keep track, but I admit, I do think about them. I have found information here and there, unintentionally, about plenary indulgences and I think it’s very interesting that in doing say, four things, a plenary indulgence is granted.

On another post in the last week or so, I read one person’s question about indulgences and someone’s reply included all the specifics of obtaining a plenary indulgence, and without one piece it would still be a partial, etc. And ended with the thought of it isn’t about doing all the steps to get the indulgence - it’s about prayer.

So here’s the catch-22: While I pray to pray and grow closer to God and I may pray in different capacities (rosary, other pre-written prayers or just talking to Him) I cannot help my human tendencies to “do all the steps” in the hopes of obtaining an indulgence of some sort for myself or souls in Purgatory.

So how does one reconcile the two? How do you fulfill all the necessary steps and yet still benefit from the spiritual reward of focused prayer? Is it simply a balance of the two? Should we not be so concerned about trying to balance the two? What if we forget to mention to God our intentions in our prayer?

yes… I am a linear, follow-the-rules type o’ gal - I’m so detail-oriented it makes me crazy sometimes - but for the sake of discussion - does anyone else ever get so bound up in the details that the essence is lost?

=)
Fiz
 
Hi Fiz!

I’m kinda like you in that I love to gain an indulgence. I love the fact that we can do so by our intention to gain all of them that we can. Hey…the fact is that I’m not so holy that I can’t use all the graces that I can get, y’know? I need 'em…gotta have 'em and I’m grateful that God offers ways to gain more graces for guys like me who recognize that we are all too human. I love the knowlege that if I get creamed in a wreck or some such foolishness that I can breathe forth my soul into the arms of Our Lord and while I’m on this earth He can help me to live like I should and to be like Him.

It’s just all about grace! :irish1:
Pax vobiscum,
 
Keep in mind that indulgences are not automatic dispensers of remission of temporal punishment for sins. Besides doing the required conditions, the prayer, work, etc under the proper circumstances, the indulgence obtained also depends upon ones internal disposition to receive it.

I remember hearing a priest tell the story of some saintly missioner who was granted by God the ability to read souls. During a parish mission, the granting of a plenary indulgences was extended to those attending, under the usual conditions. They had all attended the mission and performed the required prayers and works. But the priest was given the knowledge that of the entire congregation, only one saintly lady received the full benefit of the plenary indulgence. The rest received something less, since their prayerful dispositions were imperfect.
 
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Fizendell:
On another post in the last week or so, I read one person’s question about indulgences and someone’s reply included all the specifics of obtaining a plenary indulgence,
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Could you please give the link, I’d like to know all of the specifics.
 
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JimG:
… I remember hearing a priest tell the story of some saintly missioner who was granted by God the ability to read souls. During a parish mission, the granting of a plenary indulgences was extended to those attending, under the usual conditions. They had all attended the mission and performed the required prayers and works. But the priest was given the knowledge that of the entire congregation, only one saintly lady received the full benefit of the plenary indulgence. The rest received something less, since their prayerful dispositions were imperfect.
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I heard something very similar – in that, very few people actually obtain a plenary indulgence because one of the conditions is not only to be free of ALL sin but to also be free of any attachment to sin as well.
 
Boy, when you hit enter, fascinating things happen!

Sorry - with my last post, I meant to include the short intro.

I am fairly sure it’s the link I remembered reading and referred to above.

One of the responses is the one that mentions not doing the indulgence for indulgence sake.

And Jim - that’s a great story too. I am getting closer to understanding how one balances the two concepts. I just didn’t want to get caught up in the How To’s so much that I miss the essence. I’m learning a little something about fasting today and am discovering that it’s not just going a whole day making sure one doesn’t eat a burger - it’s about WHY you are making that effort. Ok, and a lot more, but I’m still learning/reading/soaking it all up like a sponge!

=)
Fiz
 
Try this link from the CCC-
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=indulgences&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
And as one progresses spiritually, one should begin to forget about gaining indulgences, focussing on the merits acquired, the good works done, sacraments received. One should forget ones self and put all the focus on God. On doing His will out of love, and not because of the great benefits it brings us. That’s the struggle for me , too. Every motive should have at it’s basis- the love of God. I do this because I love you Lord. Everything will then fall into place.
 
Sir Knight:
I heard something very similar – in that, very few people actually obtain a plenary indulgence because one of the conditions is not only to be free of ALL sin but to also be free of any attachment to sin as well.
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Thanks–that’s the phrase I was looking for. To obtain a plenary indulgence, we must be free of all attachment to sin! For most of us sinners, that’s a hard state to obtain. Still, obtaining indulgences is worthwhile because the effort–besides reducing our temporal punishment due to sin–also does help us incrementally reduce our attachment to sin.
 
It’s interesting, I never thought about obtaining an indulgence for myself, my grandmother always said I should gain indulgences for people who might be in purgatory and so I offer any indulgence gained for them. Of course this ties in with the topic about prayers for the deceased in that the indulgences don’t get wasted.

Does anyone else offer indulgences up for others? Would it be selfish to go ahead and gain indulgences for myself?
 
Can somebody please define “attachment to sin” for me? I would like to think that I have no attachment to sin (though I am sure I do, I wish I were that good), but I don’t really get it. For example, if I tell a lie, and confess it, am truly sorry for it, and sincerely try to not do it again, is that releasing all attachment (even if for example I slip up and do tell a lie later)?

Eamon
 
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gelsbern:
Does anyone else offer indulgences up for others? Would it be selfish to go ahead and gain indulgences for myself?
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In the end you are rewarded for all the good you do. So, whilst you may, perhaps it’s better to help others. As this way you win twice over. But, you still should ask for what you need. And be persistent as our Lord told us. It’s good to incl. at the end of every petition, " nevertheless not my will be done, but thine."
 
That’s a great point John. I have noticed recently, specifically in prayers for Pope John Paul II, that we are asking for his recovery and health so that he may lead us. And while I’m all for that, I wondered why it does not say “…nevertheless not our will be done but Yours.”

I was beginning to wonder if this was a Protestant thing - to ask for what we want but acknowledge that it’s not our will, it’s His.

At any rate - I try to remember that in all things, especially as I seek His will for my life and want very much to surrender my will to His. I think I’ve been living for myself for so long, I don’t know what it will be like to be living according to His will for me. I’m almost second-guessing everything I’m planning for!

And John, your other post is an excellent point too. I had been thinking that no matter what the reason for doing the things that gain indulgences - one cannot help but be transformed by them. Even when I feel like I’m just “going through the motions” I end up being changed!

=)
Fiz
 
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turboEDvo:
Can somebody please define “attachment to sin” for me? I would like to think that I have no attachment to sin (though I am sure I do, I wish I were that good), but I don’t really get it. For example, if I tell a lie, and confess it, am truly sorry for it, and sincerely try to not do it again, is that releasing all attachment (even if for example I slip up and do tell a lie later)?

Eamon
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This is a document on indulgences by Pope Paul Vi. 1967.
catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0262l.htm
From St Thomas Aquinas. Detailed explaination on attachment. Link below it .
Whether contrition is an assumed sorrow for sins, together with the purpose of confessing them and of making satisfaction for them?

Objection 1. It would seem that contrition is not “an assumed sorrow for sins, together with the purpose of confessing them and of making satisfaction for them,” as some define it. For, as Augustine states (De Civ. Dei xiv, 6), “sorrow is for those things that happen against our will.” But this does not apply to sin. Therefore contrition is not sorrow for sins.

Objection 2. Further, contrition is given us by God. But what is given is not assumed. Therefore contrition is not an assumed sorrow.

Objection 3. Further, satisfaction and confession are necessary for the remission of the punishment which was not remitted by contrition. But sometimes the whole punishment is remitted in contrition. Therefore it is not always necessary for the contrite person to have the purpose of confessing and of making satisfaction.

On the contrary, stands the definition.

I answer that, As stated in Sirach 10:15, “pride is the beginning of all sin,” because thereby man clings to his own judgment, and strays from the Divine commandments. Consequently that which destroys sin must needs make man give up his own judgment. Now he that persists in his own judgment, is called metaphorically rigid and hard: wherefore anyone is said to be broken when he is torn from his own judgment. But, in material things, whence these expressions are transferred to spiritual things, there is a difference between breaking and crushing or contrition, as stated in Meteor. iv, in that we speak of breaking when a thing is sundered into large parts, but of crushing or contrition when that which was in itself solid is reduced to minute particles.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon2.gifFrom me (John) this next part explains the specific Q.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

And since, for the remission of sin, it is necessary that man should put aside entirely his attachment to sin, which implies a certain state of continuity and solidity in his mind, therefore it is that the act through which sin is cast aside is called contrition metaphorically.

Read next post for rest.
 
In this contrition several things are to be observed, viz. the very substance of the act, the way of acting, its origin and its effect: in respect of which we find that contrition has been defined in various ways. For, as regards the substance of the act, we have the definition given above: and since the act of contrition is both an act of virtue, and a part of the sacrament of Penance, its nature as an act of virtue is explained in this definition by mentioning its genus, viz. “sorrow,” its object by the words “for sins,” and the act of choice which is necessary for an act of virtue, by the word “assumed”: while, as a part of the sacrament, it is made manifest by pointing out its relation to the other parts, in the words “together with the purpose of confessing and of making satisfaction.”

There is another definition which defines contrition, only as an act of virtue; but at the same time including the difference which confines it to a special virtue, viz. penance, for it is thus expressed: “Contrition is voluntary sorrow for sin whereby man punishes in himself that which he grieves to have done,” because the addition of the word “punishes” defines the definition to a special virtue. Another definition is given by Isidore (De Sum. Bono ii, 12) as follows: “Contrition is a tearful sorrow and humility of mind, arising from remembrance of sin and fear of the Judgment.” Here we have an allusion to the derivation of the word, when it is said that it is “humility of the mind,” because just as pride makes the mind rigid, so is a man humbled, when contrition leads him to give up his mind. Also the external manner is indicated by the word “tearful,” and the origin of contrition, by the words, “arising from remembrance of sin,” etc. Another definition is taken from the words of Augustine [Implicitly on Ps. 46, and indicates the effect of contrition. It runs thus: “Contrition is the sorrow which takes away sin.” Yet another is gathered from the words of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm”]Gregory (Moral. xxxiii, 11) as follows: “Contrition is humility of the soul, crushing sin between hope and fear.” Here the derivation is indicated by saying that contrition is “humility of the soul”; the effect, by the words, “crushing sin”; and the origin, by the words, “between hope and fear.” Indeed, it includes not only the principal cause, which is fear, but also its joint cause, which is hope, without which, fear might lead to despair.

Reply to Objection 1. Although sins, when committed, were voluntary, yet when we are contrite for them, they are no longer voluntary, so that they occur against our will; not indeed in respect of the will that we had when we consented to them, but in respect of that which we have now, so as to wish they had never been.

Reply to Objection 2. Contrition is from God alone as to the form that quickens it, but as to the substance of the act, it is from the free-will and from God, Who operates in all works both of nature and of will. Reply to Objection 3. Although the entire punishment may be remitted by contrition, yet confession and satisfaction are still necessary, both because man cannot be sure that his contrition was sufficient to take away all, and because confession and satisfaction are a matter of precept: wherefore he becomes a transgressor, who confesses not and makes not satisfaction.
newadvent.org/summa/500101.htm
 
Attachment to sin: While I do walk out of the confessional with a firm purpose of amendment, that purpose is hard to keep because I still have an attraction to my favorite sins.

Let’s say one is addicted to lying, because of the way it makes you feel important. Or addicted to sins of the flesh, or to angry outbursts. Everyone has favorite sins. It takes more of an effort to break the habit of those particular sins because of our attachment to them. That’s why we’re encouraged not only to avoid the sins, but to avoid the occasions of sin–those things, people, or situations, that typically lead us into sin. That helps to gradually break the attachment to sin.
 
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JimG:
Attachment to sin: While I do walk out of the confessional with a firm purpose of amendment, that purpose is hard to keep because I still have an attraction to my favorite sins.

Let’s say one is addicted to lying, because of the way it makes you feel important. Or addicted to sins of the flesh, or to angry outbursts. Everyone has favorite sins. It takes more of an effort to break the habit of those particular sins because of our attachment to them. That’s why we’re encouraged not only to avoid the sins, but to avoid the occasions of sin–those things, people, or situations, that typically lead us into sin. That helps to gradually break the attachment to sin.
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This is from St Francis De Sales. Introduction to the devout life. It deals with many things. But this is “Affection to sin”. The 2nd link is to the home page of this work. Check it out.
ecatholic2000.com/desales/idl8.html
ecatholic2000.com/desales/idl.html
 
John - it’s WONDERFUL to have you on these boards and offering so much excellent feedback and links.

I was so moved by the link to this site (ecatholic2000.com/desales/idl.html) that I began to wonder if this was in book form and where could I get it??!!

It appears it’s at the bookstore I was already planning on going to tonight!

Thank you so much for the valuable information you provide so freely!

God Bless You!

=)
Fiz
 
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Fizendell:
John - it’s WONDERFUL to have you on these boards and offering so much excellent feedback and links.

I was so moved by the link to this site (ecatholic2000.com/desales/idl.html) that I began to wonder if this was in book form and where could I get it??!!

It appears it’s at the bookstore I was already planning on going to tonight!

Thank you so much for the valuable information you provide so freely!

God Bless You!

=)
Fiz
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Thnks for your kind words. Hope you enjoy the book. And happy easter in advance.
 
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