The Catechism and Predestination

[jacobaer]

I am involved in a discussion with a Catholic friend over predestination. We are talking about where grace and free will intersect. I have Ott’s book, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. I have seen on this site where Karl Keating recommends the book to a poster on discerning the Church’s teaching on predestination. I think Jimmy Akin also recommends it and I have read Akin’s article, Tiptoe Through the Tulip.

I understand the difference between Thomism and Molinism in regards to predestination. I can’t convince my friend that there is a range of belief that the Church allows on this subject since it has not defined a teaching on predestination. We can hold to a variety of beliefs as long as we are within the bounds of what Ott calls de fide dogma, and avoid the heresies.

At this point in time, I consider myself a Thomist. My friend, as far as I can tell, is a Molinist, but I don’t think she calls it by that name. She just very strongly holds to free will.

Well, here is my question. She has pulled up quotes from the CCC. I have also delved into the CCC. But it only mentions predestination once and doesn’t really get into the topic. They seem to have just skimmed the topic.

Could the CCC have been written from a Molinist point of view?

Thanks for your help,
Jacobaer

P.S. Here are some relevant de fide dogmas from Ott’s book under God the Sanctifier:

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.

There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.

For every salutary act, internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.

Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and salvation.

Without the special help of God, the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.

The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God.

Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral truths.

For the performance of a morally good action, sanctifying grace is not required.

Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.

God gives all the just sufficient grace for the observation of the divine commandments.

God, by his eternal resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.

God, by an eternal resolve of his Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.

The human will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.

There is grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious.

The sinner can and must prepare himself by the help of actual grace for the reception of the grace by which he is justified.

The justification of an adult is not possible without faith.

 

[Fidelis]

I am involved in a discussion with a Catholic friend over predestination. We are talking about where grace and free will intersect. I have Ott’s book, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. I have seen on this site where Karl Keating recommends the book to a poster on discerning the Church’s teaching on predestination. I think Jimmy Akin also recommends it and I have read Akin’s article, Tiptoe Through the Tulip.

I understand the difference between Thomism and Molinism in regards to predestination. I can’t convince my friend that there is a range of belief that the Church allows on this subject since it has not defined a teaching on predestination. We can hold to a variety of beliefs as long as we are within the bounds of what Ott calls de fide dogma, and avoid the heresies.

At this point in time, I consider myself a Thomist. My friend, as far as I can tell, is a Molinist, but I don’t think she calls it by that name. She just very strongly holds to free will.

Well, here is my question. She has pulled up quotes from the CCC. I have also delved into the CCC. But it only mentions predestination once and doesn’t really get into the topic. They seem to have just skimmed the topic.

Could the CCC have been written from a Molinist point of view? I don’t know about that, as there may not be, as you point out, enough information to tell.

(BTW, I admire the conversation you and your friend are having. It’s rare and refreshing to hear about my fellow Catholics discursing intelligently on such a relatively deep subject. )

Since you’ve read Jimmy A’s *Tulip *article, if you haven’t done so, I’d suggest going further and reading his book “The Salvation Controversy” which is a more in-depth treatment of this same topic.

Additionally, I’d challenge you to look up the canons and Catechism of the Council of Trent (available on-line), specifically it’s canon on justification. Trent dealt head-on with this topic as it was one of the Big Two issues of the recent “Reformation.” Trent was more dogmatic than Vatican II (which was largely a pastoral council), and it is still official Catholic teaching.

 

[jacobaer]

Hi Fidelis,

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut!

I am going to look up Trent and get the book by Akin.

Grace to you,
Jacobaer