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Maxirad
Guest
In recent years, have American public schools taught how stupid and evil communism is?
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Anrakyr
Guest
Communism is stupid but so is everything else really. We need to spend less time caring about what a system is, more if it helps the people.
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Suudy
Active member
Ah! So the ends justify the means. And which “help” is more important than another “help.” The only way to answer that is a “system.”
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Anrakyr
Guest
No, the means justify the means. I feel you have it backward, where as long as the means are just then the end is irrelevant.
People fall between the cracks of the system no matter what you do. The point of a good system is to allow it to adapt to those failings instead of acting personally attacked they failed someone. A system that can resist corruption and has enough bureaucracy to prevent someone will mal-intent from conforming it to their will.
Is there a perfect system? No, people are diverse and come in all manner of shapes sizes, beliefs, races and cultures. What works for you may not for me.
A good example in some parts europe they have split days; four hours work or school in the morning 4 at home then back at it to round out the day. It doesn’t apply to everyone clearly but it allows single people to attend bank hour meetings of other related events a 9-5 job wouldn’t normally.
Is that great for everyone? No. Would I want to see it here? I wouldn’t mind but it’s not up to me alone but more importantly its a not a moral issue.
Often I feel that conservative Christians will die on a hill of pure capitalism and democracy when they don’t need too. Any mention of weaving in methods from other cultures of schools of thought are seen as an attack on your way of life. Can we as a society come together and ask ourselves serious questions about why we do the most basic things constructively without feeling attacked?
Frankly, I think libraries shouldn’t be open in the morning. Its a waste of taxpayer’s money, the people who really need to use it are not available till the afternoon (students both young and old or people doing research).
Could I be wrong? Absolutely, but we won’t know till we take a look at actual data and the demographics before we slap something down.
There are of course ideas that are more complicated than this. Can we repurpose a left-leaning program into a right-leaning system without losing our minds?
As long as people are safe and happy I’d like to hope so.
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Suudy
Active member
It was sarcasm.
Who said “pure capitalism”? Who said “democracy”? And who’s dying on any hill?
Who’s lost their minds?
Your post said we should “spend less time caring about what a system is, more if it helps the people.” The system is the means and helping the people is the end. Fair enough, you aren’t saying the system is irrelevant. But you are certainly place more value on the ends than on the means. That was the point of my response.
A system (at least an economic system) necessarily requires more than one participant. It cannot be tailored to meet the needs of everyone. Ever. As you note, people will “fall between the cracks of the system no matter what you do.” Everyone acknowledges this. And nobody rejects the idea of trying to “adapt to those failings.” The only people I see acting “personally attacked [if] they failed someone” are the left. Unless you those on the right that think social programs and the incumbent taxes are failing the them.
Frankly, I’ve found your response full of platitudes and having no specific prescriptions to fix anything. And I think it misplaced. Of course “we as a society can come together and ask ourselves serious questions about why we do the most basic things constructively without feeling attacked.” We’ve done so for over 200 years. The current atmosphere is full of tension and lots of hot air. But I’m optimistic enough to trust in God’s providence that this will all pass and we’ll have another one of those “golden ages.”
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Anrakyr
Guest
I’m calling on general knowledge of the posters of this forum. People who believe that any inclination towards socialism is bad and make no secret of that fact.
For someone who has been here since 04 then you’d remember the number of times, the above has happened. I’m being general to address that pre-packable “left is bad” argument. Just because someone comes up with a solution that may be based (in part or otherwise) on a none right method.
Its an appeal to ask for ideas to be weighed on their merits and not their origin.
Preferably before we devolve into left vs right squabbling.
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c4csp
Guest
It is pretty clear that marxism in any shape or form is evil and contradictory to the Catholic Church.
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Anrakyr
Guest
I rest my case.
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Suudy
Active member
Note they said “Marxism.” Sure, any “form” of Marxism. But Marxism at its core is atheistic. Would you expect a single faithful Catholic to accept any form of an atheistic viewpoint?
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Anrakyr
Guest
Don’t make me retread my previous post by making me link:
It would save so much time.
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c4csp
Guest
Marxism is always this idea of creating a utopia, heaven on earth. Any faithful person to Jesus Christ knows that heaven is not and will never be here on earth through faulty humans. They seek out to create heaven on earth and tens of millions of people are killed instead. Marxism in any form is evil.
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Victoria33
Guest
This all opens up an interesting case, right now, Mexico is over-run with Cartels, there is a travel warning everywhere, ranging from “use caution” to “severe”.
It is a matter of greed, cartels battling and it’s not just over drugs, it’s over oil and gas, this conflict might even exist without the drug appetite in the US. And though, I don’t want to go deeply into the causes, government corruption too is a problem.
And this is what set up the Zapatista guerillas too in the state of Chapas. Are they Marxists? It seems reading about it says they have some of those tendencies but it’s probably a heck of a lot more peaceful than the areas affected by all the violence currently. Sometimes I do wonder, which is actually better?
Most of those Central American countries and indeed, Venezuela’s socialist takeovers or movements are not atheistic. Venezuela is probably a basket-case from the already mentioned corruption more than Marxism actually. Cuba is in dire straits and Cuba certainly is not friendly towards religion.
And all of this, almost veers into the path of the famous “liberation theology”, I don’t know it to well and don’t care to delve into it, it is related.
It is a matter of greed, cartels battling and it’s not just over drugs, it’s over oil and gas, this conflict might even exist without the drug appetite in the US. And though, I don’t want to go deeply into the causes, government corruption too is a problem.
And this is what set up the Zapatista guerillas too in the state of Chapas. Are they Marxists? It seems reading about it says they have some of those tendencies but it’s probably a heck of a lot more peaceful than the areas affected by all the violence currently. Sometimes I do wonder, which is actually better?
Most of those Central American countries and indeed, Venezuela’s socialist takeovers or movements are not atheistic. Venezuela is probably a basket-case from the already mentioned corruption more than Marxism actually. Cuba is in dire straits and Cuba certainly is not friendly towards religion.
And all of this, almost veers into the path of the famous “liberation theology”, I don’t know it to well and don’t care to delve into it, it is related.
Suudy
Active member
My point was that you cited a quote that didn’t prove your point. It said “Marxism.” A key feature of Marxism is atheism. So again, my point is that what form of Marxism would be acceptable to a faithful Catholic?
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Anrakyr
Guest
And my point was to skip this whole conversation you are trying to have and discuss in detail the various system that can be taken from any branch of the left and applied. Without having a long pointless drawn out conversation about the merits of the left of who made it, why, how…
Can we discuss an idea on its merits without saying “but communist used it”.
They also used forks and toilets, I don’t see people lining up to out houses and eating with their hands.
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Victoria33
Guest
I’ll make my statement short, Christianity nor Catholicism is not suffering in Central America and Venezuela. Venezuela fails because of corruption. They are not compelling people to be atheists if they have Marxist influenced governments. Cuba probably does though. Simplifying.
Suudy
Active member
No. My point was your counterexample was flawed.
I don’t care who makes arguments. Or perhaps even why. But rather what the arguments are about.
Who said that? Your example about Marxism being evil? That wasn’t the point (at least as I understand it) of saying forms of Marxism are illegitimate.
That not what the point of the Marxist post was about. It’s not like they were saying “You know, those Marxists were all atheists, so Marxism is evil and we can’t use it.” It was “Marxism has a strong, central atheistic tenant of atheism, so Marxism is evil and we can’t use it.”
Perhaps you ought to cite a more realistic example. I’m not going to search for it, but something along the line of “The USSR had feature X that I think we can leverage to help the people.” (Whatever X might be.) If the response is “Well, the USSR implemented pogroms and is evil, therefore we should do X” you’d have a point. But that’s not what has been cited so far.
Suudy
Active member
Marxist influence is different than Marxism. You might think I’m being pedantic, but that’s not my goal in the discussion above with @Anrakyr. My point is only to make things clear and unambiguous. The term “Marxism” is loaded, and I think most people identify it with Das Kapital . If that’s not what is meant, don’t use the term. Be explicit. Talk about specific features and policies.
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Anrakyr
Guest
How can a request for a civil discussion be flawed?
What this tells me is we can’t because you at least won’t.
I’m trying to get that point but you are already making points about:
So I feel we ended before we even started. Have a good night.
Suudy
Active member
Your request wasn’t flawed. Your example was.
We can’t what? Discuss other systems or features of other systems? See below.
I see you failed to quote or even respond to my final point:
Perhaps you have some specific feature of other “systems” you think are good to leverage. Please do share it and I’m happy to discuss.
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Duke12VonFalkenburg
Guest
Communism has been a disaster everywhere it has been tried. The actual data shows a massive loss of human lives. Communism doesn’t respect the dignity of the individual and his right to property and wealth. Read a history book and it will all be clear to you. Communism leads to mass suffering in the form of Tyrannical oppression (How else are you going to steal wealth and property from those who have it and hand it out to others?) Famine on an apocalyptic scale via collective farms and industries combined with command economy millions starved to death in the Soviet Union and China. Lets not forget the “Re-education Camps” (After all you cant have people thinking things for themselves.) Re-education camps are still a thing. China’s Xinjiang province is full of such camps.
Point is Communism / Marxism is a failed ideology and its time the world tossed it into the toilet bowl of history where it belongs and flush it.
Yeah… Pretty sure you are wrong.
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