The catholic church to which Ignatius belonged...?

[Radical]

JL: The magisterium could never teach ERROR.

JL: Simple answer those who don’t agree with magisterial teaching are mistaken. Ture the maisterium isn’t the Church. They are the INFALLIBLE teachers.

JL: The magisterium can only error if Christ does not keep his promise to lead them into all TRUTH. That isn’t going to happen.

JL: … The Word is without error but we can see interpretations are not.

It seems that you believe:

1. because the Magisterium can’t officially teach error,
2. the Magisterium must be right when it claims
3. that the promise that the “Spirit would guide the disciples into all truth” means that the Magisterium can’t officially teach error; and
4. therefore, we know that the Magisterium can’t officially teach error…

That seems more than a little circular.

 

[Newsy]

It seems that you believe:

1. because the Magisterium can’t officially teach error,
2. the Magisterium must be right when it claims
3. that the promise that the “Spirit would guide the disciples into all truth” means that the Magisterium can’t officially teach error; and
4. therefore, we know that the Magisterium can’t officially teach error…

That seems more than a little circular.

I addressed this in post 316.

 

[Radical]

The Magesterium cannot teach in error because** it uses scripture and Tradition.**

all sorts of heretics have used both scripture and tradition…your claim doesn’t follow. If you actually think your claim is sound, provide the proof in point form.

The Gospel of Mark tells us not everything He taught is written down, if it were not even the whole world could contain it.

John, not Mark

It’s not Scripture’s job to interpret itself, it doesn’t claim to be the sole source of Truth.

and it doesn’t claim that the Magesterium is infallible either.

All Christians take for granted that Scripture is inspired, a statement set forth by the Catholic Church.

not nearly all christians think that the Scriptures are inspired…and having faith that the early Church managed to do one thing competently, doesn’t mean that one must have faith that all other things were done competently by the early Church…oh and BTW, crediting the CC with this, is begging the question.

 

[wisdomseeker]

all sorts of heretics have used both scripture and tradition…your claim doesn’t follow. If you actually think your claim is sound, provide the proof in point form.

John, not Mark

and it doesn’t claim that the Magesterium is infallible either.

not nearly all christians think that the Scriptures are inspired…and having faith that the early Church managed to do one thing competently, doesn’t mean that one must have faith that all other things were done competently by the early Church…oh and BTW, crediting the CC with this, is begging the question.

What other Church was there?

 

[jlhargus]

It seems that you believe:

1. because the Magisterium can’t officially teach error,
2. the Magisterium must be right when it claims
3. that the promise that the “Spirit would guide the disciples into all truth” means that the Magisterium can’t officially teach error; and
4. therefore, we know that the Magisterium can’t officially teach error…

That seems more than a little circular.

JL: If a pillar and ground of TRUTH ever taught error then it wouldn’t be a pillar and ground of TURTH would it?

 

[jlhargus]

all sorts of heretics have used both scripture and tradition…

JL: How do you determine the truth?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical
all sorts of heretics have used both scripture and tradition…

Really? Which tradition and scripture? You’ll have to be much more specific.

 

[Nicea325]

It seems that you believe:

1. because the Magisterium can’t officially teach error,
2. the Magisterium must be right when it claims
3. that the promise that the “Spirit would guide the disciples into all truth” means that the Magisterium can’t officially teach error; and
4. therefore, we know that the Magisterium can’t officially teach error…

That seems more than a little circular.

Circular? Explain how Jesus was being circular here:

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26 (NKJV)

Either the Holy Spirit teaches the Truth or does it here and there when it pleases throughout time?

 

[Newsy]

all sorts of heretics have used both scripture and tradition…your claim doesn’t follow. If you actually think your claim is sound, provide the proof in point form.

If heresy has developed from using both Scripture and Tradition, how much more has developed from using only Scripture? So, you accept scripture and reject oral tradition b/c heretics have used both? Heretics have used only Scripture, but you don’t reject it.

John, not Mark

My mistake, thanks.

and it doesn’t claim that the Magesterium is infallible either.

“The family of God is the church of the living God. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth.”- 1 Tim 3:15 Which Church is this text referring to?
BTW, Scripture doesn’t have to tell us the Magesterium is infallible for it to be true. That is a limitation protestants put on the Church, that it must be written in Scripture. Scripture, Tradition and the Magesterium work together and make up the Deposit of Faith. Where would the Early Church look for guidance during the first decades, between say 33ad and 50ad? There were not written NT letters for everyone to refer to, that’s where oral Tradition and the Church come into play. There are plenty of threads on this subject, no need to derail this one.

not nearly all christians think that the Scriptures are inspired…and having faith that the early Church managed to do one thing competently, doesn’t mean that one must have faith that all other things were done competently by the early Church…oh and BTW, crediting the CC with this, is begging the question.

Who first stated that Scripture is inspired? The Methodists? What Church existed prior to 1000ad? Which Church’s leaders were involved in the Council of Rome, 382ad? This is the first list we have of a canon.

I’ll be out of town this weekend on a teen retreat, guess I’ll catch up on this next week. Have a great weekend!

 

[Radical]

JL: If a pillar and ground of TRUTH ever taught error then it wouldn’t be a pillar and ground of TURTH would it?

And? I can’t help but note that the passage doesn’t say that the Magesterium is the pillar and foundation of the truth. It doesn’t say that the hierarchy of any particular segment of the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth…nor does it say that the CC of the 3rd, 11th, 16th or 21st century is the pillar and foundation of the truth. As such, it would seem that all of those things could err w/o jeopardizing the claim in that passage.

JL: How do you determine the truth?

imperfectly, but, if at all possible, I try to avoid placing my faith in anything with a sketchy record.

 

[Radical]

Circular? Explain how Jesus was being circular here:

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26 (NKJV)

why, I wouldn’t suggest that Jesus was being circular there

Either the Holy Spirit teaches the Truth or does it here and there when it pleases throughout time?

Why would that be a valid either/or? I think it is:

a) the Holy Spirit teaches the Truth

b) the Holy Spirit teaches the Truth here and there when it pleases throughout time

c) sometimes people seek/listen to the Holy Spirit’s guidance and sometimes they don’t.

In short, don’t blame the Holy Spirit if your Church has erred and don’t claim that the only way that your Church could err is if the HS dropped the ball.

 

[Radical]

If heresy has developed from using both Scripture and Tradition, how much more has developed from using only Scripture?

don’t know…but use of scripture alone does not guarantee freedom from error either.

“The family of God is the church of the living God. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth.”- 1 Tim 3:15 Which Church is this text referring to?

the church made up of all of those possessed of the Holy Spirit.

BTW, Scripture doesn’t have to tell us the Magesterium is infallible for it to be true.

agreed

Who first stated that Scripture is inspired?

members of the church ( made up of all of those possessed of the Holy Spirit) are the ones who first viewed the NT books as scripture and who first contemplated a canon.

What Church existed prior to 1000ad?

the church made up of all of those possessed of the Holy Spirit.

Which Church’s leaders were involved in the Council of Rome, 382ad? This is the first list we have of a canon.

nope, it isn’t the first list and it ratified a position that was already established…for the most part, the leader’s at the Council were part of the church made up of all of those possessed of the Holy Spirit.

I’ll be out of town this weekend on a teen retreat, guess I’ll catch up on this next week. Have a great weekend!

you too…I hope that you are blessed

 

[mark_a]

the church made up of all of those possessed of the Holy Spirit.

Any Catholics in that church?

 

[Radical]

Any Catholics in that church?

these days, I think about half call themselves Catholics.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Circular? Explain how Jesus was being circular here:

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26 (NKJV)

Radical:
why, I wouldn’t suggest that Jesus was being circular there

Precisely! If Jesus clearly told the 12 the Holy Spirit would teach them all things,thus the 12 are part of Christ Church,then how is it plausible to err when doctrine/dogma is involved?

Quote:
Either the Holy Spirit teaches the Truth or does it here and there when it pleases throughout time?

Radical: Why would that be a valid either/or? I think it is:

Exactly! Exactly Radical. God NEVER makes errors…EVER!

a) the Holy Spirit teaches the Truth

Exactly and not half-truths or anything less.

b) the Holy Spirit teaches the Truth here and there when it pleases throughout time

Exactly and that is how doctrines were understood and developed over time. However, that is not say it only taught some Truth and at times confusion.

c) sometimes people seek/listen to the Holy Spirit’s guidance and sometimes they don’t.

In short, don’t blame the Holy Spirit if your Church has erred and don’t claim that the only way that your Church could err is if the HS dropped the ball.

Okay…AND? The Arians still rejected the Trinity…AND? JW’ and Mormons still do 2,000 years later? AND? Does that negate the Holy Spirit? Does it change an iota of God’s Truth? Did God waive His Truth in order to please and suit those who refuse to seek or listen?

I beg your PARDON? When did I ever blame the Holy Spirit for the CC mistakes? Those are your own- bearing false witness.The church and many of its members made mistakes,but that in no shape or form debunks doctrine as revealed by the Holy Spirit. Second of all, one does not need belong to ANY church to make mistakes. Precisely why Christ founded His Church for the sinners,not for perfectionists.

On the contrary,don’t blame the Holy Spirit, if He had nothing to do with the founding of thousands of man-made denominations and non-denominations,etc,etc.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Which Church’s leaders were involved in the Council of Rome, 382ad? This is the first list we have of a canon.

Radical:
nope, it isn’t the first list and it ratified a position that was already established…for the most part, the leader’s at the Council were part of the church made up of all of those possessed of the Holy Spirit.

Really? A ratified position was made official? Please show us the list which was ratifed and made official? List of books or fixed canon? There is a difference.

 

[mark_a]

these days, I think about half call themselves Catholics.

Is that a coincidence or what? Pope Paul said “about half” when asked how many people work at the Vatican!