The Catholic Church

[Guardian333]

The Catholic Church is the largest religion in the world (approx 1.1 billion members world wide. See www.adherents.com)), and it is the oldest institution in the world as well (older than any established government or religion).

It is larger than all Protestant denominations combined.

However, within the United States, Protestants make up 52%, and Catholics only make up 24% of Christians here in the US.

The percentage of Catholics in some other countries such as the Philippines, Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Germany, Mexico, Poland, etc., is much higher.

With these facts in mind, how can I make this information relevant with regards to Catholic Apologetics?

 

[Church_Militant]

With these facts in mind, how can I make this information relevant with regards to Catholic Apologetics

?Why would you need to? The apologetics of truth is not contingent on majority in any particular location is it?
Pax tecum,

 

[Guardian333]

So is it totally irrelevant that the Catholic church is the largest religion in the world? Or is it? Isn’t there anything scripturally that can coincide with this?

 

[Della]

So is it totally irrelevant that the Catholic church is the largest religion in the world? Or is it? Isn’t there anything scripturally that can coincide with this?

It is the one faith, one baptism, one Lord that St. Paul wrote about. No matter where in the world a Catholic lives and worships, he is holding to the same beliefs, the same sacraments and receives the same Lord in the Eucharist. That so many people are united in this way shows that Christ truly desired that all who follow him should be one.

Also, although Catholics are not the majority in the USA we are the largest single Church, so that tells us something about the Church, too. That it is truly what the Nicene Creed says it is: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

 

[Church_Militant]

So is it totally irrelevant that the Catholic church is the largest religion in the world? Or is it? Isn’t there anything scripturally that can coincide with this?

IMO it’s irrelevant to apologetics. Truth is truth…

 

[Todd_Easton]

The fact that the Catholic Church has become the largest religion seems to fulfill the words of Jesus in Mark 4:30-32:

And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable shall we use for it? 31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown upon the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth; 32yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes the greatest of all shrubs, and puts forth large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade.” (Mark 4:30-32)

The fact that the Catholic Church is the oldest institution seems to fulfill the words fo Jesus in Matthew 16:18:18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Catholic Church is the largest religion in the world (approx 1.1 billion members world wide. See www.adherents.com)), and it is the oldest institution in the world as well (older than any established government or religion).

It is larger than all Protestant denominations combined.

However, within the United States, Protestants make up 52%, and Catholics only make up 24% of Christians here in the US.

The percentage of Catholics in some other countries such as the Philippines, Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Germany, Mexico, Poland, etc., is much higher.

With these facts in mind, how can I make this information relevant with regards to Catholic Apologetics?

You make them relevant this way:

1. 
   *]If you were a Martian, coming down to earth for the first time, and you wished to know what humans believe, you would quickly discover that most humans (one third of them) are Christians.
   *]If you then wanted to know what Christianity teaches, you would look to the beliefs of most Christians, and in so doing would discover that the Catholic Church is the largedy body of Christians on earth, larger than all other Christian bodies put together. In fact, better than one in six human beings is a Catholic.
   *]The Catholic Church would thus be the first church you turned to for an explanation of Christian belief.
   *]When you then discovered that, taking into account the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox church and other Eastern churches, that 75% of Christians agree on 95% of theology, you would conclude that you had a real line on the bulk of what Christians believe.
   *]When you then discovered that there was a small 25% group which was hopelessly fragmented amongst itself, disagreeing on all kinds of doctrine, and only giving verbal assent (but different interpretations) to its two chief slogans—“faith alone” and “Scripture alone”–you would save this group for last of all. It would go to the bottom of the rung and would be investigated last, after all of Christian groups.
   *]Needless to say, this reflects Jesus’ teaching, “If you love one another, the world will know you are my disciples.” Those who are internally and visibly fragmented into different organizations do not show Christ’s love and unity, and so go to the bottom of the methodological pile.
   *]For this reason you, as an Evangelical, owe it to yourself and to your eternal soul to break away from the Protestant cultural context of this country and to consider Christianity from a global and historical perspective, seriously and openmindedly examining the question of wheter you should become Catholic.
   *]I am convinced that any reasoned, openminded examination of the evicence will show that you should, that Catholicism is true. And so I am sure that, both from what you have heard here and from what you will read, that you, too, will discover why you should be Catholic.
   
   +++
   
   From a talk given by Jimmy Akin at Talbot Theological Seminary. Talbot is an Evangelical seminary located on the campus of Biola University in the Los Angeles area

 

[Tietjen]

The Catholic Church is the largest religion in the world (approx 1.1 billion members world wide. See www.adherents.com)), and it is the oldest institution in the world as well (older than any established government or religion).

It is larger than all Protestant denominations combined.

However, within the United States, Protestants make up 52%, and Catholics only make up 24% of Christians here in the US.

The percentage of Catholics in some other countries such as the Philippines, Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Germany, Mexico, Poland, etc., is much higher.

With these facts in mind, how can I make this information relevant with regards to Catholic Apologetics?

Well, first I don’t really know if having a majority means the same as having the Truth. Therefore, I don’t know that I would incorporate population into apologetics. Second, while I will agree that there are approx 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide and that the Catholic Church is the largest Christian Church, I wouldn’t say that it is larger than all the protestant Churches combined. Third, Islam has a population of 1.2 billion members worldwide and is growing at a rate of 19% per year while Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) is falling at a rate of 32% a year (the drop is compared to the rate of growth in overall continued world population). Forth, and lastly, the Catholic Church is not the oldest religion in the world. I would think that title goes to Judaism.

Therefore, I suppose that what I am saying is be careful what you wish to incorporate into apologetics. Words like “oldest” and “largest” aren’t as important as truest and fullest. And if the stats are not correct, those hearing these numbers and ages, may dismiss everything else that might be said. God bless.

 

[Guardian333]

Yes you are right. I made a careless mistake with regards to the statement of the catholic church being included as the oldest religion. However, it is still the oldest institution. and . . Yes, I will be careful with my semantics , which is why I want clarification here on this forum. Thank you very much “brother”.

I will take to heart what Todd Easton posted

The fact that the Catholic Church has become the largest religion seems to fulfill the words of Jesus in Mark 4:30-32:

And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable shall we use for it? 31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown upon the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth; 32yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes the greatest of all shrubs, and puts forth large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade.” (Mark 4:30-32)
The fact that the Catholic Church is the oldest institution seems to fulfill the words fo Jesus in Matthew 16:18:
18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

Thank you Todd.

 

[thistle]

The Catholic Church is the largest religion in the world (approx 1.1 billion members world wide. See www.adherents.com)), and it is the oldest institution in the world as well (older than any established government or religion).

It is larger than all Protestant denominations combined.

However, within the United States, Protestants make up 52%, and Catholics only make up 24% of Christians here in the US.

The percentage of Catholics in some other countries such as the Philippines, Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Germany, Mexico, Poland, etc., is much higher.

With these facts in mind, how can I make this information relevant with regards to Catholic Apologetics?

How much difference it makes I don’t know but I thought Catholics make up 24% of the total population and not 24% of total Christians.

 

[Petergee]

Well, first I don’t really know if having a majority means the same as having the Truth.Therefore, I don’t know that I would incorporate population into apologetics.

Not the same thing, and not absolute proof but it IS one powerful piece of evidence. That the Scriptures mentioned above are being fulfilled in the Catholic Church. Can all those billions of people, not just those alive today but those in previous centuries, have ALL got it wrong? And unlike many other religions, most of these Catholics freely chose their religion, not because they didn’t know any other in their cultuiral tradition or because they were forced to convert to it by military conquest.

Second, while I will agree that there are approx 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide and that the Catholic Church is the largest Christian Church, I wouldn’t say that it is larger than all the protestant Churches combined.

You would be wrong then. Catholics outnumber not only protestants but ALL other Christians (protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Nestorian, and other) COMBINED.

Third, Islam has a population of 1.2 billion members worldwide and is growing at a rate of 19% per year while Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) is falling at a rate of 32% a year (the drop is compared to the rate of growth in overall continued world population).

That’s quite wrong. The proportion of Christians in the world population has been steady for many years at about one-third of the world’s population, and is predicted to remain so on current trends. If current rates of growth continue, Islam would outnumber Christianity by the end of the century. But there are many reasons for thinking the current apparent growth in Islam will not be sustained. The introduction of true freedom of religion, freedom of speech and open government in “Islamic” countries would see a precipitous drop in their supposed “99%” or even ludicrously “100%” Moslem populations. (Also eg the Indonesian govt inflates by about 100% the number of Moslems in its population by counting all tribal-animists and others who have basically no religion as “moslem”.) And Islam is far from a monolithic single religion. It is just as fragmented as protestantism, and for similar reasons. Right now in Iraq Sunni and Shia Moslems are killing each other.

Forth, and lastly, the Catholic Church is not the oldest religion in the world. I would think that title goes to Judaism.

It was stated , correctly, that the Catholic Church (not the Catholic religion) is the oldest institution in the world, not “the oldest religion”. Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Zoroastrianism are all older than Catholicism, but they are not (visible, tangible) institutions, and have changed their beliefs many times, in some cases utterly beyond recognition. (Temple Judaism was an institution but it came to an end the Jews abandoned it after the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD). The second oldest existing institutions in the world (the oldest of the universities) are only half as old as the Catholic Church (and the universities themselves grew out of Catholic monasteries!) This is a particularly powerful argument. Institutions founded by mere humans all eventually fade and die. An institution founded by God and promised to endure until Christ comes again, seems to bear out that prophecy.It apparently can’t be killed despite all the tyrants, heresiarchs and others who have tried so desperately for 2000 years to exterminate it. And despite the horrific corruption, weakness and incompetence of some of its leaders!

Therefore, I suppose that what I am saying is be careful what you wish to incorporate into apologetics. Words like “oldest” and “largest” aren’t as important as truest and fullest. And if the stats are not correct, those hearing these numbers and ages, may dismiss everything else that might be said. God bless.

As long as we make sure we get the figures right, IMO they can be very helpful. Many people have a numerical bent and numbers appeal to them.

Which of these is more likely to attract a potential convert: -
“Our institution has the truth, and it is 20/50/200/470 years old, and comprises 0.1%/1%/5% of the world’s population, primarily confined to one or a few countries, and we’ve changed our beliefs many times, and we have some really wacky beliefs that very few or no others believe in”?
Or “Our institution has taught the same truth consistently for 2000 years, and comprises 18% of the world’s population, in every country, race and culture in the world, and about another 12% of the world’s population believes nearly everything our religion teaches.”?

 

[Darrel]

IMO it’s irrelevant to apologetics. Truth is truth…

It’s long standing existence is proof of Christ’s promise that the gates of hell will not stand against it. It’s success for (2000 years) is an act of God. What other organization in the history of the world has lasted 2000 years? These facts are facts that can be used in debating with the Johny come lately protestant world or the Johnny come lately Islamic world.

-D

 

[Church_Militant]

It’s long standing existence is proof of Christ’s promise that the gates of hell will not stand against it. It’s success for (2000 years) is an act of God. What other organization in the history of the world has lasted 2000 years? These facts are facts that can be used in debating with the Johny come lately protestant world or the Johnny come lately Islamic world.

-D

ok…I’d agree with that

 

[Tietjen]

Which of these is more likely to attract a potential convert: -
“Our institution has the truth, and it is 20/50/200/470 years old, and comprises 0.1%/1%/5% of the world’s population, primarily confined to one or a few countries, and we’ve changed our beliefs many times, and we have some really wacky beliefs that very few or no others believe in”?
Or “Our institution has taught the same truth consistently for 2000 years, and comprises 18% of the world’s population, in every country, race and culture in the world, and about another 12% of the world’s population believes nearly everything our religion teaches.”?

Hi Petergee and thank you for responding. I am also Catholic and the numbers (stats) I have differ than yours in several areas. However, since I am going by the numbers of other men, I cannot speak firsthand as to whether the numbers I presented are accurate and will therefore not defend them vigorously. However, the primary point of my post rests in the argument of whether percentages, ages, and numbers would actually make a difference in apologetics. My thoughts on the issue is that if Protestants (who claim to believe every word in the Bible) can ignore so many truths that are found in it; would they not, even more easily, refute stats presented to them by Catholics? These numbers, just as my numbers are different from yours, can be a source of contention and it is not difficult to come up with new numbers from another source to argue pro or con the numbers present by the OP. I would think that the truths presented in the Bible would be much easier to defend than the numbers presented by men. Both Protestant and Catholics view the Bible as THE source for these truths, so at the very least, we would be gathering our information from the same source. The only hurtle being interpretation of the material. In other words, the truth isn’t based on “majority rules.” God bless.

 

[Petergee]

Hi Petergee and thank you for responding. I am also Catholic and the numbers (stats) I have differ than yours in several areas. However, since I am going by the numbers of other men, I cannot speak firsthand as to whether the numbers I presented are accurate and will therefore not defend them vigorously. However, the primary point of my post rests in the argument of whether percentages, ages, and numbers would actually make a difference in apologetics. My thoughts on the issue is that if Protestants (who claim to believe every word in the Bible) can ignore so many truths that are found in it; would they not, even more easily, refute stats presented to them by Catholics? These numbers, just as my numbers are different from yours, can be a source of contention and it is not difficult to come up with new numbers from another source to argue pro or con the numbers present by the OP.

No, I think that if you or anyone check carefully with authoritative sources you will come up with figures that are the same or very close to the ones I quoted.

I would think that the truths presented in the Bible would be much easier to defend than the numbers presented by men. Both Protestant and Catholics view the Bible as THE source for these truths, so at the very least, we would be gathering our information from the same source. The only hurtle being interpretation of the material.

But Catholics DON’T view the Bible as THE source for the truths it contains. IMO getting this point across to protestants is the most difficult hurdle we have in evangelising them.

In other words, the truth isn’t based on “majority rules.” God bless.

I certainly didn’t say it was; and I wasn’t suggesting we shouldn’t also use the Bible, the Early Church Fathers, philosophy, and every other evangelising tool at our disposal when it seems helpful. I just said that the vast numbers of people who have chosen the Catholic faith throughout the world and in every century, often in the face of vicious persecution, is a very powerful additional supportive argument for the truth of the Catholic faith.

 

[roblrich]

But Catholics DON’T view the Bible as THE source for the truths it contains… suggesting we should also use the Bible, the Early Church Fathers, philosophy, and every other evangelising tool at our disposal when it seems helpful.

Apologies for the edit, but I wanted to be concise, and I don’t think I changed your point in any way.

But you agree that the Bible does not contradict the Catechism and the Catechism does not contradict the Bible?

But very true, the Catholic traditions and rituals are traced back 2000 years to the original apostles, and Catholics still use them today. This is what makes the Catholic faith so rich and true! And the reason I am converting.

 

[Petergee]

But you agree that the Bible does not contradict the Catechism and the Catechism does not contradict the Bible?

Yes. The Bible is inerrant and contains the truths necessary for our salvation, and is entirely consistent with the Catholic faith. The reason being that the New Testament books were written by Catholic bishops and priests and that the pope and the Catholic bishops carefully checked every verse of each book to make sure it complied with the Catholic faith, before deciding to include those books in the Bible.

Protestants generally rely on the totally unhistorical idea that the Bible is some kind of original instruction book telling us how to construct Christ’s Church from scratch. They think the Bible made the Church. But it was the Church which made the Bible, as an expression of the faith which it had already had for centuries. Just as the Church made the Catechism much later as an expression of the very same Catholic faith.

But very true, the Catholic traditions and rituals are traced back 2000 years to the original apostles, and Catholics still use them today. This is what makes the Catholic faith so rich and true! And the reason I am converting.

Congratulations and welcome! I’m praying for you.