The Catholic & idolatry myth

[Dettingen]

Ah, the idolatry myth. Like the hydra, impossible to kill.

Let me just say that it is generally the less wealthy, less educated congregations which emphasise this silly idea.

The more educated Protestants believe, I think, that art can be inspirational without being idolatrous. Meditation on art can be a great way to focus prayer. Moreover, art instructs the illiterate (The Stations of the Cross, for example.)

If you look carefully, you may find what I believe is true: that many Protestants, especially the evangelical and charismatic types, treat the Bible itself in such a rigid way that it becomes a kind of fetish, an idol in its own right even.

Behind all this is I think very understandable human falliability. We fear uncertainty so much that we console ourselves by rejecting another’s practices. Thus, by rejecting X we remind ourselves that our Y is correct. Then we feel less uncertain, less afraid.

Everybody does this. But God who made us understands our limitations and forgives our failures lovingly. God I think can overlook these details as trivial next to our sincere faith and sincere efforts to try and do what is right the rest of the week.

Pax

Dettingen

 

[Janet1983]

Well, they also had real visits from Mary. But do you really believe that they didn’t use images and environment as teaching aids? The Black Madonna is thought to have been painted by St. Luke. The Catacombs were lavishly decorated with Christian symbols and prayers. They look a lot more like Eastern Rite churches than like Protestant churches.

Maybe I’m just missing it, but why would that picture be shown in a Protestant environment?
I mean it is more Catholic and Eastern than anything… I would actually contest the notion that it has been painted by Luke…
On top of that I would, if I was still Catholic, keep the utmost silence about this picture.
The “Black Madonna” is said to have done a couple of miracles, and people actually venerate that piece of canvas and paint for exactly that…

Apart from that I have to tell you something: If you ask a tribal idol-worshiper out of Africa why they worship an icon made from metal or wood that obviously cannot do anything he will give you a simple explanation: They do not worship the idol, but the power that it represents in heaven… Just for thoughts.

I’d never claim that the Catholic teaching is to worship this kind of an idol (as with this picture), but some individuals actually do, especially after the picture is said to have miraculously saved the monastery of Jasna Góra from a 17th century Swedish invasion and it is said to have saved its church from being destroyed in a fire.
Just wondering… Why would anybody claim a picture did this?

 

[jmcrae]

Maybe I’m just missing it, but why would that picture be shown in a Protestant environment?

It wouldn’t.

I mean it is more Catholic and Eastern than anything… I would actually contest the notion that it has been painted by Luke…

You seem to be assuming that Luke was Protestant? No - he was a Greek Catholic. Protestantism began to exist in 1524 AD. There were iconoclasts (image breakers) in the 700s AD as well - they were formally excommunicated from the Church, ultimately.

Apart from that I have to tell you something: If you ask a tribal idol-worshiper out of Africa why they worship an icon made from metal or wood that obviously cannot do anything he will give you a simple explanation: They do not worship the idol, but the power that it represents in heaven… Just for thoughts.

If that’s what they’re actually doing, then guess what - they are not committing idolatry.

(They are probably still worshipping false gods, however.) My understanding is that the native religions of Africa don’t contain any concept of Heaven, and that they actually believe that the images they carve have power in and of themselves - they are not intended to be representations of some kind of unseen force, but rather, their embodiment.

However, if they are using the images as representations of something rather than believing that the images actually contain the power of a god, then they are no longer committing idolatry.

I’d never claim that the Catholic teaching is to worship this kind of an idol (as with this picture), but some individuals actually do, especially after the picture is said to have miraculously saved the monastery of Jasna Góra from a 17th century Swedish invasion and it is said to have saved its church from being destroyed in a fire.
Just wondering… Why would anybody claim a picture did this?

I doubt that anyone thinks the picture itself did that. Rather, they probably believe that the combined intercessory prayers of St. Luke and Mother Mary did that, and the picture represents that to them.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well, they also had real visits from Mary. But do you really believe that they didn’t use images and environment as teaching aids? The Black Madonna is thought to have been painted by St. Luke. The Catacombs were lavishly decorated with Christian symbols and prayers. They look a lot more like Eastern Rite churches than like Protestant churches.

Again, I’m not an iconoclast against images. I think they have their place and, as I said, my home is full of them. But did the early Christians kiss the feet and hands over and over and put flowers at the feet and go through these afflicted motions in an almost idolotrous worship? Doubtful. Also, if you read Augustine he made some statements about images that concerned him as being almost idolotrous. The very early Church was not a bunch of statue-kissers.

 

[wwolverine]

I do not claim to be an expert on Catholicism. I only mean that I had enough time in the Roman church to see things that really, really bothered me. Is it your position that there is no Roman Catholic church with saints’ relics in the basement, and that no Catholic prays to statues of Mary? If that is the case, perhaps what I’ve observed has been misunderstood. If so, I apologize.

However, I was genuinely interested in addressing the topic, but of course for every one of us heretics there’s about 15 Catholics to ridicule us and jump down our throats for making objective observations and asking sincere questions.

Its not that catholics jump down the throats, but clearing some misunderstanding is a must.

I dont know if this happens in other churches, but many churches in our place have a huge procession during the last week of Lent, and than on Good Friday. We have huge Image of Jesus and Mother Mary, And on Good Friday, The Image of Jesus is on the cross which later on in solemn ceremony removed from the cross.

Later we dont even see the images throught the year, does it mean we worship Idols, or we use Idols to remember all the saints and Our Lord?

Its same like someone pointed about photographs of our loved ones either in our purses or in homes.

 

[LittleDeb]

Clarification: Catholics use icons not idols.

Icon means image. An idol doesn’t even have to be something that has an “image.” Status and wealth are examples of two idols that have no “image” associated with them.

As I stated before, an idol is perceived to have power in and of itself. An icon represents something else.

I can very easily explain why Our Lady has all the kneelers and her statue gets all the kisses and the Tabernacle doesn’t. Have you ever tried to hug a monstrance?

To those who think that Catholics worship idols… I have kissed the caskets of all of my late grandparents. I also walk by their pictures in my hallway and kiss my fingertips and place my kiss on their pictures. Do you think I would have a *lesser *reverence for the Mother of our Lord?

 

[pjk123]

A Frank Question Though;What about the New Catholics who comes from Religions like Hinduism?I have had the opportunity to visit some churches in Indian states like Tamilnadu,karnataka etc where New Converted Latin Catholic Girls offers “Saree”(A Women’s attire) for finding Life Partner.Most of their kids,Elder May not be knowing or following Catholicism and Teachings.

What About the Catechism of these new catholics who may be teaching and worshipping St.Mary and Other Saints?This is India Specific since the Paganic Practices and Idol worships are something Hindus are Believing.For them ,“Thejus” or the Spirit of God is Inscribed in Idols.What happens with such new christians is ,Unless with compulsory catechism etc ,they will end up being idolaters.Similarly ,I read about Practices of Cutting Throat of Birds as Offering in front of Some Saints is Followed in Some Churches.I think I saw some program regarding some Latin American countries in this Aspect.

There is another accusation of St.Mary is seen as Mother Goddess by Protestants and others AFAIK.Their Version is christianity is found only on 4th AD and The Ancient Roman Mother Goddess Idea is adopted in having St.Mary’s importance in Apostolic Churches.

PS:I and Catholics Here in the Forum knows the above quoted things are wrong;BUT What about the new converts whose culture also is linked to their ex-religion;eg:Hinduism.Inculturization is Happening in a Shocking rate!
It is a Complex Issue.Remember- Many of these New Catholics/Christians(protestents included) are illiterate or are still following Hindu practices.They revere Icons or Idols as Blessed.Many Churches like this Exist.atleast I know in India.
Church Must Help these people to follow the Teachings Correctly.I Agree,their Priests and Blessed are doing a great amount of work to educate them spiritually as well as standard education.but that is simply not enough.

PPS: Indian Syrian Christians of Kerala state are from childhood well aware of the Church’s teaching.I was discussing about new found Christians in India in Particular.My Humble Suggestion is Missionaries and Reverent Priests,Nuns Must Keep these facts in their mind when dealing with new christians anywhere India.

Thanks to All.
Some Images of catholic churches’s,chapels,shrines almost like Hindu Idol worship.Images include girls dancing in altar during functions,paganic catholic church(or temple?).I thought of attaching the images here;but Afraid those images will be used to malign catholic church,hence not uploaded.:

• For those having a orkut account,please check:*
  orkut.co.in/Main#Album?uid=569124030245781012&aid=1229310869

 

[jmcrae]

Do the converts from Hinduism not receive RCIA instruction before becoming Catholics? They should also be receiving post-Baptismal catechesis, as well, to learn the proper teachings of the Church.

It takes a while, though. Give them time; they will eventually figure it all out.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Clarification: Catholics use icons not idols.

Icon means image. An idol doesn’t even have to be something that has an “image.” Status and wealth are examples of two idols that have no “image” associated with them.

As I stated before, an idol is perceived to have power in and of itself. An icon represents something else.

I can very easily explain why Our Lady has all the kneelers and her statue gets all the kisses and the Tabernacle doesn’t. Have you ever tried to hug a monstrance?

To those who think that Catholics worship idols… I have kissed the caskets of all of my late grandparents. I also walk by their pictures in my hallway and kiss my fingertips and place my kiss on their pictures. Do you think I would have a *lesser *reverence for the Mother of our Lord?

Actually Orthodox use icons but that’s neither here nor there. I’m perplexed why you explain away no kneelers in front of the tabernacle by asking, "have you ever tried to kiss a monstrance?’ First of all, the monstrance, at least in my parish, is placed in front of or on the altar or thereabouts. The Host is held within the Tabernacle, not outside of it in a monstrance in my experience so kissing a monstrance doesn’t apply. Secondly, why does one need a kneeler that is three feet away from a Mary statue in order to kiss it? Kneelers are nice comfort when praying and worshipping. I have no qualms praying to and adoring the Body and Blood of Christ. And if I have to choose between praying to the Present Lord in the Tabernacle or an empty statue that represents something, that’s a no-brainer for me. I don’t think that these folks necessarily worship idols or believe that they believe they are. But it’s borderline and troubling to me. We need to cultivate a faith that is deep enough and have Christ and the BVM and saints be internalized enough in our lives that we don’t necessarily need to stare at statues and kiss them up and down. If we get to a point where the image plays too big a role and is that paramount in feeling close to Mary or Christ, then it gets close to idolatry.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am Catholic, but, at this point in time, I must attend an Apolostic/Pentacostal church. I really can’t go into detail as to why I must, I just must. Last week, when the preacher was preaching out of Peter I, he got to the word idolatry and started talking about how the Roman Catholic Church worshiped idols!! I was frozen. I felt my cheeks getting red and I wanted to get up and run. He said it so matter of factly. I was just so stunned as the congregation started the “Amens”, as if they also knew that we worship idols. I could have seen him saying that people who worship Budda had idols, because that is fact, but Catholics?? Do other religions also think that we worship idols??

Protestants have their idols too. All Christians have idols without exceptions. When we become aware of our idols, we repent, confess our sins, and turn back to our faith in Christ.

That You May Know - 1 John 5

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God [1] will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

 

[LittleDeb]

Actually Orthodox use icons but that’s neither here nor there. I’m perplexed why you explain away no kneelers in front of the tabernacle by asking, "have you ever tried to kiss a monstrance?’ First of all, the monstrance, at least in my parish, is placed in front of or on the altar or thereabouts. The Host is held within the Tabernacle, not outside of it in a monstrance in my experience so kissing a monstrance doesn’t apply. Secondly, why does one need a kneeler that is three feet away from a Mary statue in order to kiss it? Kneelers are nice comfort when praying and worshipping. I have no qualms praying to and adoring the Body and Blood of Christ. And if I have to choose between praying to the Present Lord in the Tabernacle or an empty statue that represents something, that’s a no-brainer for me. I don’t think that these folks necessarily worship idols or believe that they believe they are. But it’s borderline and troubling to me. We need to cultivate a faith that is deep enough and have Christ and the BVM and saints be internalized enough in our lives that we don’t necessarily need to stare at statues and kiss them up and down. If we get to a point where the image plays too big a role and is that paramount in feeling close to Mary or Christ, then it gets close to idolatry.

Aaaaaand you missed my point. For many people they just cannot quite grasp the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. (Literally or fuguritively.) Personally, I am with you. I will take adoration any day of the week over an empty statue. Exposed monstrance or reposed in the tabernacle; either one. I have on many occasions knelt on the floor. It doesn’t faze me. My point is that Our Lady *always *points to her Son.

For many people, our Protestant brothers and sisters included, just can’t (or won’t) embrace the Eucharist as The Real Presence. They need a guide they can understand. Christ Himself gave all of us His own mother. Our Lady will always point the misguided towards her Son.

The people who kneel around Our Lady at the “expense” of her Son are just in a different place on their journey. Since our Lady cannot *be *idolized, those who only know to run to her embrace will not be steered wrong.

On the other point, yes, Orthodox use icons too. But that doesn’t mean Catholics don’t, so I have no idea why you bring up the Orthodox. There are many Catholic iconographers. I know of several. When they write the icons, (icons are written, not drawn,) when they write their icons they spend hours fasting and in adoration. Some even spend time in prayer with Our Lady. Icons are especially revered in the Eastern Catholic rites. Byzantine Churches are exceptionally beautiful due to their generous use of icons.

Please seek a deeper understanding of people who have a devotion to Our Lady. She always, always leads to her Son. Our Lord gave us a faith that feeds all of the senses. Yes, a statue is just a three-dimensional painting, but painted images are also helpful in filling all of our senses. Touch is a very important sense that you might be overlooking.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Aaaaaand you missed my point. For many people they just cannot quite grasp the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. (Literally or fuguritively.) Personally, I am with you. I will take adoration any day of the week over an empty statue. Exposed monstrance or reposed in the tabernacle; either one. I have on many occasions knelt on the floor. It doesn’t faze me. My point is that Our Lady *always *points to her Son.

For many people, our Protestant brothers and sisters included, just can’t (or won’t) embrace the Eucharist as The Real Presence. They need a guide they can understand. Christ Himself gave all of us His own mother. Our Lady will always point the misguided towards her Son.

The people who kneel around Our Lady at the “expense” of her Son are just in a different place on their journey. Since our Lady cannot *be *idolized, those who only know to run to her embrace will not be steered wrong.

On the other point, yes, Orthodox use icons too. But that doesn’t mean Catholics don’t, so I have no idea why you bring up the Orthodox. There are many Catholic iconographers. I know of several. When they write the icons, (icons are written, not drawn,) when they write their icons they spend hours fasting and in adoration. Some even spend time in prayer with Our Lady. Icons are especially revered in the Eastern Catholic rites. Byzantine Churches are exceptionally beautiful due to their generous use of icons.

Please seek a deeper understanding of people who have a devotion to Our Lady. She always, always leads to her Son. Our Lord gave us a faith that feeds all of the senses. Yes, a statue is just a three-dimensional painting, but painted images are also helpful in filling all of our senses. Touch is a very important sense that you might be overlooking.

I appreciate your point of view, your thoughts, and your desire to grow in devotions. But I don’t lack an understanding of people having devotions to Our Lady. I just find some of these devotions to be over-the-top. It’s just my opinion. I don’t see why intercessory prayer to Mary, praying the Rosary, and visiting the Eucharist isn’t enough. I don’t necessarily share your view that Protestants need a guide to the Eucharist so they go through Mary. I think Christ can be appreciated, grasped, worshipped, and loved 100% without Mary. She may point to Him but if a Protestant comes to Catholicism already loving Christ and finds faith in the Eucharist, Mary isn’t essential IMO. I think Marian devotion has overshadowed devotions to Christ in many ways. I know that love of Mary and Christ is not an either/or situation, but quite frankly, since I went back to the RCC in 2002, I have very very rarely prayed to Mary. I very rarely pray to saints period. I go straight to the intercessor and High Priest Hebrews speaks of, Christ Jesus. I do not begrudge or condemn Marian devotion, I just don’t really practice it. I have Marian images in my home out of respect but I don’t really pray to Mary much. If I have 30 minutes and I spend all 30 minutes praying to Christ, I feel that is better than 15 minutes to Mary and 15 to Christ. I’d rather dedicate all my prayer to Him. That’s just my approach. Doesn’t mean it’s the only one or a superior one. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[BernadetteM]

From what I understand the Jews while in Temple kiss their fingers and touch the Torah as it is processed around. They also have little figures (I don’t know what they are called) outside of their homes which they also kiss their fingers and touch as they enter their homes. I believe that since the Catholic Church is the completion of the Old Convenant Catholics just are following the traditions of the Jews. The difference is that we now have Christ Jesus and His Holy Mother and the saints. We have the fulfillment of the Faith. Also Jesus worshiped in a liturgical setting, not as most of the protestants do today. He would also have made sure that liturgical worship ended, instead He took part in it as every good Jew did. The Apostles also worshiped liturgically, why don’t protestants follow Christ’s example?

Does anyone think that the Jews are worshiping the above items? If what they do is wrong, I am sure that our Lord would have put a stop to it during his preaching and teaching.

I know many protestants who by their actions appear to worship the stars in Hollywood, money, cars and wealth. Some act like the Bible which is a book not God is also worshiped by the way they speak about it. Many protestants today preach only about prosperity when Jesus said take up your cross and follow me. He also said leave everything behind.

I am intelligent enough to know that although their actions seem like worship, if I asked them if they are worshiping these things, they would deny it. I would take them at their word as I can’t read their hearts.

How judgemental some posters are. Please don’t forget that the Lord said you will be judged as you judge others. That is a very strong statement and I would not want to have my judgement rest of my judging of others. I might not agree with their teachings, but I’ll leave it up to God to make the final judgement whether they will end up in Heaven or Hell.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

From what I understand the Jews while in Temple kiss their fingers and touch the Torah as it is processed around. They also have little figures (I don’t know what they are called) outside of their homes which they also kiss their fingers and touch as they enter their homes. I believe that since the Catholic Church is the completion of the Old Convenant Catholics just are following the traditions of the Jews. The difference is that we now have Christ Jesus and His Holy Mother and the saints. We have the fulfillment of the Faith. Also Jesus worshiped in a liturgical setting, not as most of the protestants do today. He would also have made sure that liturgical worship ended, instead He took part in it as every good Jew did. The Apostles also worshiped liturgically, why don’t protestants follow Christ’s example?

Does anyone think that the Jews are worshiping the above items? If what they do is wrong, I am sure that our Lord would have put a stop to it during his preaching and teaching.

I know many protestants who by their actions appear to worship the stars in Hollywood, money, cars and wealth. Some act like the Bible which is a book not God is also worshiped by the way they speak about it. Many protestants today preach only about prosperity when Jesus said take up your cross and follow me. He also said leave everything behind.

I am intelligent enough to know that although their actions seem like worship, if I asked them if they are worshiping these things, they would deny it. I would take them at their word as I can’t read their hearts.

How judgemental some posters are. Please don’t forget that the Lord said you will be judged as you judge others. That is a very strong statement and I would not want to have my judgement rest of my judging of others. I might not agree with their teachings, but I’ll leave it up to God to make the final judgement whether they will end up in Heaven or Hell.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Hi Bernadette,

You make some great points. Who are these judgmental posters to which you are referring?

 

[4EverHis]

I don’t think i’ve ever in my whole life thought that God is somehow ‘contained’ in an image of Him that I have at home or see at Church… Catholics don’t worship images… that’s so sad that people think we do. I think it’s a misunderstanding. The reason we worship the Eucharist is because the Eucharist IS Jesus, so nothing wrong with that…

As far as protestants thinking Catholics worship idols, I think this really just comes down to the second commandment. Protestants hold that this forbids any use of images in worship and any image of God. Some protestant denominations will not even have so much as a cross found anywhere around their building. But I guess you heard so many amens because it is easier to point and say, ha they worship idols, than to examine the heart and find out where their idols have been that week.

God told the Israelites to make images… nothing wrong with them the error in the OT was when people began worshipping the actual image - the painting or the statue - …but Catholics don’t do this.

 

[BernadetteM]

Hi Bernadette,

You make some great points. Who are these judgmental posters to which you are referring?

Dear guneyhalleck,

It is not my place to comment on who these people are. Hopefully the posters who are so judgemental and say such uncharitable things about others will have their hearts opened by the Holy Spirit and become anew in Christ.

I choose to be Catholic, was not raised as one, but was led by the Holy Spirit to the Church. I have found that some converts to the Church do not truely understand the basics of the faith and some carry their protestant theology with them and finally leave because we aren’t friendly enough or social enough for them. My decision to become Catholic was because I found the truth there and yes I like to socialize, but I go to church to worship our Lord.

Sorry I am off track from what you asked. Jews also pray to the dead and for the dead which is very Catholic. I feel sad when people use unkind words to describe our belief in the Eucharist, the sadness is for their souls not for myself. As Catholics I feel a freedom that I didn’t feel as a protestant. From all the posts you can see that even Catholics don’t always agree, so I guess the Pope doesn’t have the power some believe he has over us.

Again I apologize for going on about other subjects.

God Bless you

Bernadette