The Charismatic Movement and Glossolalia

[SonofMonica]

Even the terminology that Charismatics use gives them away: “drunk in the Spirit,” “slain in the Spirit.” What nonsense. What an insult to the Holy Spirit. Being drunk is not a gift of the Spirit. Scripture says being sober minded and practicing self control are gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings life, not death. When someone tells me they were “slain in the Spirit,” I tell them plainly they were demon possessed. Holy uncontrollable laughter? More demonic nonsense. Where in the canonical Gospels does it say that Jesus or the Apostles ever fell down and couldn’t get up; or they were staggering around, barely able to stand, as if drunk on alcohol; or their speech was slurred and they couldn’t speak comprehensibly; or they got down on all fours and barked like dogs or oinked like pigs; or they slithered on the ground like serpents; or they couldn’t stop laughing or crying. These are not manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They are manifestations of demonic presence and possession.

 

[SonofMonica]

I add my Amen to Julia’s letter. Jesus gave us a COMMAND to love (Jn. 13:34), which means that despite all the hatred nakedly displayed around the world (AND in this forum!) Love, per se, CAN exist. I think it was Bishop Tutu (not sure?) who explained that love is a law, much like the law of gravity - anyone who tried to disprove the law of gravity by jumping off a roof is in for trouble! This forum seems to draw a large number of lemmings jumping off cliffs trying to demonstrate that love does not exist!
I urge those of you who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, whether in ignorance or not, to read Jesus’ words according to Mark 3:29. Please!
Also, to those who rattle on about the 7 gifts of the Spirit (please read 1 Cor. 12:4-11 - there are (at least) 9) and the fruits, please read the bit before Fruits of the Spirit, ie Galatians 5:19-21). From which I quote: “The works of the flesh (Paul defines ‘flesh’ in V17) are…enmities, strife, jealousy, angers, rivalries, divisions, sects, envyings…” And if you think Charismatics are a sect, please read Acts 2. That first Pentecost was the START of the church, the schism from charisms crept in sometime around Eusebius, I guess.
Like Julia, I am tempted to walk away from the enmities, strifes, angers etcetera displayed in this and other threads. But maybe I was led here by the Holy Spirit which so many of you seem to despise. Julia, hang in there, guess I will for a bit; meanwhile I shall continue to pray for all of you - IN TONGUES!!!

Come now, does it take a Anglican bishop to teach the Church of the Most High God how to love? Jesus taught us that. The same Jesus that promised the Paraclete to guide his Church into all truth. The same Jesus that led Paul to write in 1 Corinthians 13 that the sort of stuff you’re talking about would pass away and cease because it would no longer be necessary. This “you just don’t love people” stuff sounds like a last ditch defense when you know your position just simply isn’t supported in Scripture or history or Tradition. Do you really think that because good, church-going folk don’t want people acting like animals in the pews that they don’t love people?

If you think Acts 2 supports your position, you haven’t read it. It is about the Apostles being able to speak languages already in existence, and folks understanding it in their own language.

Not a sect? You are starting a movement in the Church that is teaching a new way of receiving the Holy Spirit that not everyone apparently can have. You are acting like crazy people, and then complaining that people don’t show love to you. You are taking what was described as a gift of the Holy Spirit and turning it into a way of doing things. A better way of worship. A way to receive “more” of the Holy Spirit. That’s what Pentecostalism does, and you’re saying if people don’t “love you” enough to accept it, you’re going to leave. Sure sounds like the beginning of a sect to me.

Pentecostalism at its core creates the attitiude among its adherents that “If I don’t do this, I don’t have the Holy Spirit!” What can be more divisive, cause more jealousy, strife and envy than that?

 

[sauce]

You’re crying foul. You state your points but its not convincing, so I think of why I’m not convinced and state my own point.

• I’m sure you being a Charismatic Catholic, believe speaking in tongues is the Biblical way of receiving the Holy Spirit
• So I ask, is the “gift” the Pentecostals received in the video more “Biblical”?

You start accusing me of being “political” just to avoid my point.

There is no “foul.” I don’t need to call “foul.” That’s your word not mine.

" More Biblical way of receiving the Spirit?" We receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism and Confirmation and also Holy Communion. The gift of tongues is just that, a gift.
You don’t want it, it seems. NO BIG DEAL. What do you say to a wall?

You must ask a Pentecostal what he/she thinks is a valid answer to your
question. But I think you already have your answer.

Political equals the old testament form of oneupsmanship. It’s one up and one down.
You traditionalists just love that stuff. You’re all victims it seems. Just like the liberal
left. Well, you are welcome to it. It’s not for me.
Just because you say “jump,” don’t expect a person to say “how high.”

That’s all. I’m inclined to agree with Julia Majors. She’s got class. So does IanGE.

You guys need a rosary. The Mysteries of Light are super fine.

In the friendship of Our Lady.

 

[Little_Katie]

The Charismatic movement is a movement made up of groups such as the neocatechumenal way who wish to, in their eyes, “modernize” the Church, which they see as a “dinosaur”, an archaic organization, a “fossil.”

They reject traditional liturgy, they deemphasize the distinction between the laity and clergy, they reject reason in favor of emotion, they use guitars and drumsets instead of an organ, they treat Communion as a communal meal instead of a sacrifice, they allow anyone to give homilies, they have microphones and speakers on their altar, the word “Rosary” sounds more like a spice to them, they are very suspicious of Church authority and clergy, they speak in tounges, they read scripture literally. Notice many of these characteristics are common to the Protestant ‘holiness’ movement.

However it’s not the fault of the people, it’s a result of a generation of bad catechism in schools. My brother went to an RCIA class where the teacher talked about her personal life, there was no mention of the Baltimore Catechism. It’s a result of forgetting our history, our tradition, our culture. They seek to infuse modern society with the Church, it’s like Servant of God Paul VI said: The smoke of Satan has entered the Church. This smoke is modernism.

Guitars and drumsets don’t bother me, provided they lay off the drums durring communion. Communion is a sacred time and the music should be soft and promoting quiet prayer. But the entrance hymn, for example, bring on the drums!

I don’t know much abou this movement. But I do know that the reason I love The Church is that she has passed down her traditions from the time of Christ. It would not feel like Christ’s one true church anymore if suddenly we modernized ourselves and neglected propper doctrines.

 

[Church_Militant]

I would simply ask them to refrain from acting a fool during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

And acting a fool is what these people are doing: youtube.com/watch?v=1SgByE0pX1M

Can I please have that 6 1/2 minutes of my life back now? That was one of the worst cases of sheer disorder and confusion I have ever seen, and St. Paul tells us where that comes from and it is not the Holy Spirit.

This is called being drunk in the spirit just like the apostles were at 9 in the morning
on Pentecost. People thought they were drunk.

That is completely wrong. There is no record anywhere in the Word of God of any such occurrence as is displayed here. Read 1st Corinthians 12-14 and see what St. Paul teaches them about this.

This gift of laughter is quite valid. St Philip Neri had it.

That would make it a private revelation and therefore faithful Catholics are cautioned that it may not be in conformity to church teaching.

I have read where some saints have actually floated up into the air while in raptured prayer. I would believe that might be from the Lord before I would accept that this pandemonium is.

St. Francis of Assisi and St. Clare and their monks and nuns are reputed to have been enraptured by the Holy Spirit with the manifestation of tongues of fire and even fire displayed over the building that they were in so that the whole village rushed there to combat the blaze only to find them all lost in prayer and adoration. Yet you never see that happening to these people.

Read the passages I mentioned and all of you take your lead from St. Paul’s counsel which we know is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Something that one might consider in the context of St. Paul’s comments in the passages I mentioned.

One such is, “4 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; 5 And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord; 6 And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all. 7**8 To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; 9 To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit; 10 To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches. And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit. 11 But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.”

Does anything in that video fit this?

1. The scripture you’re talking about where it says that people thought the apostles were drunk is irrefutably talking about the sort of “speaking in tongues” which simply means speaking in another valid, recognized language that people already know, without having been trained to do so. Acts Chapter 2. Read it. This was a miracle and the purpose for which was just the same as any other miracle ever done—to confirm that it was God who was at work. This was a way to confirm that these twelve apostles had God’s “seal of approval” as leaders of the new church and that it was Christ who was working through them. As the scene was creating quite a stir, a huge crowd formed and was amazed that these Twelve men were speaking in languages that they had not studied. These other languages they had spoken were not gibberish, but actual languages of nations that existed at the time. See verse 8.
2. The apostles were NOT DRUNK IN THE SPIRIT. They were not drunk in anything. Peter specifically said they were not drunk in verse 15. There is absolutely no indication that the apostles lost control of their senses, spoke in “new” languages that no one had ever spoken before. None of that. Your claim is a complete fabrication.
3. The gift of laughter is not a fruit of the spirit. Those fruits are, as listed by Paul in his letter to the Galatians,
   • love (agape);
   • joy (chara);
   • peace (eirene);
   • patience (makrothumia);
   • kindness (chrestotes);
   • goodness (agathosune);
   • faithfulness (pistis);
   • gentleness (prautes);
     ** * self-control (egkrateia).**

Hmm… I wonder why Paul lists self-control. Could this have anything to do with the fact that he tells the Church at Corinth not to act like a fool in Church, because people will think they are insane? Could be…

1. The content of the video stands on its own.
2. Laughter is a gift from God, apart from any particular moving of the Spirit, and I exercise that gift when I look at videos like the one I posted. I don’t think I would be laughing if you brought that mockery of God into my parish church, though…

I have to agree with Son on this. Very well put my friend.

Those of you who are charismatic Catholics, please don’t get me wrong. I know and understand every aspect of what you believe and practice, and in general have no problem with it, though, as I have said before, I no longer involve myself in Charismatic activities though I know that I still have the gifts that I had when I was active in that.

As St. Paul tells us, “13] For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another.” (Galatians 5)

 

[Church_Militant]

I’ve never seen so much misundertanding,bile, anger ,hatred aimed at at a Catholic group.You see the extreme and think it the common.You see no intellect. you only see emotion. The Problem is that at average prayer meeting we pray praise,sing meditate.Charismatic Mass are not a common occurence.People who are involved in the movement are also involved in so called traditional devotions, are enamored of the Eucharist, go to reconciliation,honor the sacraments listen to the the bishop, pope- are more obedient then ultra- traditionalist no matter how super Catholic they believe they are.

The lack of charity is palpable here and the ire that is so obvious here is very unChristlike.

Your point is well taken, but it does seem to cut both ways. Abuses are not, and should never be, the norm. That video is not a charismatic Catholic event and should not be confused with one. In fact…God forbid that a Catholic should find himself embroiled in such. Hopefully, they would flee for the door as from the devil himself. I have never heard of any such foolishness occurring in any CC groups around here. All those that I know are pretty solid soldiers and we get along great. There are a few that are weird to me…but then there a few non CCs that I find kinda weird as well, so…

Since the movement is accepted by the church and the popes why others disdain and despise the movement(which surprise is comprised of actually people) who you also show disdain for- where is the ire for the schismatics for those who deny the pope is the pope. who despise everything that they personally don’t understand and doesn’t adhere to there concept of"church’.

I’m not really sure where this is all that relevant. It sort of generalizes in a similar fashion to those you have rebuked.

We are not uneducated
we are not stupid
we read the catechism
we know our traditions
we love our church
our sacraments
our hierarchy
we respect our priests
we honor we venerate Mary
and the saints
We trust completely in the Trinity
we don’t deny the power of the sacraments and the grace therein
as some suggest.

I’m right with you so far…

We are not in league with Satan no matter what others infer-who see Satan everywhere except in themselves.

This cannot be said of all as none of us know all and there has always been the scriptural caveat to test the spirits whether they be of God. (1st John 4:1)

I would discern that the people in the video that SoM posted might very well be such a case. So far as I know there is never any excuses given for that kind of manifestation in the New Testament and such confusion and disorder is specifically stated not to be from the Holy Spirit. In general though, one could discern wherever one is, right?

I end this missive and will no longer post here because of the unbridled ugliness that is mirrored within.
The lack of respect toward your brothers and sisters in Christ is just plain wrong-no matter how you justify your dislike of the renewal.
The peace and Love of Jesus be with all of you.!

That is, of course, your own prerogative, but I would think that the body of Christ is better served by remaining here and dispelling doubts by the display of your good behavior. I’m not crazy about these arguments either, but I will not leave because of them. As I said earlier, that ugliness appears to cut both ways don’tcha think?

 

[Church_Militant]

And yet another conspiracy theory. Way too leftist for my taste.

If you say so, but I think here you generalize and label inaccurately.

I have no doubt that some are quite sincere in their objections; yet, the Church does not condemn charismatic experience.

And that is as far as the church has gone. I’m fine with that position since it works for me.

What do you think “rivers of living water” are? In fact, what does any of the bible
actually “look” like?

There is nothing in the passage to which you refer that even remotely infers a connection between John 7:38 and what that video displayed. John 4:10 & 11 also mention living water but again, there is nothing that even remotely would infer what you have just stated.

No one said that “holy laughter” was a “fruit” of the Spirit. IT ISN’T. It is a manifestation of the Spirit. It is a sign of the new wine.

There is no mention anywhere in scripture of any such thing as holy laughter as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit or of anything else in the life of the church.

In fact, Gregory Nazianzen has the following to say in his First Theological Oration (Oration 27) (Gregory …

But let us recognize that as in dress and diet and laughter and demeanour there is a certain decorum, so there is also in speech and silence; since among so many titles and powers of God, we pay the highest honour to The Word. Let even our disputings then be kept within bounds.

And it has happened all over the place.

So has much evil and sinful behaviors, so that is no valid test.

The Holy Spirit is unpredictable. And wise above all others.

Amen…that’s where our most holy faith comes from.

 

[Church_Militant]

Well, I’m certainly not seeing anything that changes my mind. Listening to sauce speak certainly confirms in my mind that these folks are here to turn the Great Sacrifice into a Pentecostal bedlam, not because of any connection to actual Church teaching, but because they think the Holy Spirit speaks to them in a special way that we all haven’t tuned into yet.

Thanks to sauce’s revelation to us all, we now have no need for bishops! Wherever the Holy Spirit makes people laugh uncontrollably, there is the Church. Better get started…

:dancing::crying::extrahappy::whacky: :bigyikes:

I don’t agree with you there SoM.

There may be individuals who err, but so far I have seen nothing like that video in any of the CCs I know.

Sauce has problems with what he believes and I have tried to gently correct him. It is in the hands of the Holy Spirit.

Pentecostalism is another matter and is not Catholic to begin with.

So long as CCs remain faithful and obedient Catholics I have no issue, and so long as they maintain the same disciplines that St. Paul teaches about in his letters to the Corinthians there should be no problems.

Some of the allegations made about CCs and their goals are pretty much rash generalizations just as those made against traditionalists have been. In both cases, such generalizations should be avoided.

In that context and spirit, I offer this prayer and ask everyone posting on this thread to join me in praying in this tongue. (Hopefully, most of you will recognize the prayer.)

Pater noster qui es in coelis,
sanctificetur nomen tuum;
adveniat regnum tuum,
fiat voluntas tua,
sicut in coelo et in terra.
Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie,
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.
et ne nos inducas in tentationem
sed libera nos a malo.Amen.

 

[IanGE]

1Sa:8 tells of when Samuel was old. The people did not want either of his sons to become the next Prophet, so asked Samuel to request of the Lord a King to lead them. Displeased, Samuel went to the Lord who said (V7): “it is not you they have rejected, it is Me they have rejected”…
As Jesus said so often, “let those who have ears to hear, hear.”

 

[sauce]

1Sa:8 tells of when Samuel was old. The people did not want either of his sons to become the next Prophet, so asked Samuel to request of the Lord a King to lead them. Displeased, Samuel went to the Lord who said (V7): “it is not you they have rejected, it is Me they have rejected”…
As Jesus said so often, “let those who have ears to hear, hear.”

Perhaps they would benefit from a Holy Spirit Wind over their bones.
In any case you are right on IanGE.

Many pompous souls here. They need to get God out of their head and into their heart.
Why look at the speck in your brother’s eye when you miss the plank in your own?

 

[sauce]

There is nothing in the passage to which you refer that even remotely infers a connection between John 7:38 and what that video displayed. John 4:10 & 11 also mention living water but again, there is nothing that even remotely would infer what you have just stated.There is no mention anywhere in scripture of any such thing as holy laughter as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit or of anything else in the life of the church.
:

This reminds me of someone who has only read about mixing and laying cement,
but in actuality has never done it. Get yourself on a job and you would not know what you are doing. As most of the responses on here prove.

Actually, most of the responders lack awareness as to what the Holy Spirit is doing amongst His people, non-Catholics included. Take a bath in the Holy Spirit and your eyes might be opened.

That’s all. But then again you have to be hungry. And you guys aren’t hungry,
you’re hostile. Doesn’t hurt me, it hurts you.

 

[sauce]

It is worth noting that in Theresa of Avila’s book “Interior Castle,”
she writes about spiritual inebriation.

She is a Doctor of the Church. Not the misinformed on this thread.
So Rock On.

 

[Church_Militant]

This reminds me of someone who has only read about mixing and laying cement,
but in actuality has never done it. Get yourself on a job and you would not know what you are doing. As most of the responses on here prove.

Actually, most of the responders lack awareness as to what the Holy Spirit is doing amongst His people, non-Catholics included. Take a bath in the Holy Spirit and your eyes might be opened.

That’s all. But then again you have to be hungry. And you guys aren’t hungry,
you’re hostile. Doesn’t hurt me, it hurts you.

This response is so far from any reality that it discredits you.

You must not have read my posts carefully because I do indeed know what I’m talking about. I’ve been there and done all that.

I suspect that most everyone who reads all this will be able to easily see the difference between the scriptural guidelines and some of the stuff you have said.

There is no such thing as a manifestation of “holy laughter”. It’s not in the Bible and it’s not even mentioned by any saints that we can find. I can’t even find any reference to it with St. Philip Neri, so so far all we have is some anti-Catholics on video involved in disorder and confusion in violation of the scriptures and you defending them.

It is worth noting that in Theresa of Avila’s book “Interior Castle,”
she writes about spiritual inebriation.

She is a Doctor of the Church. Not the misinformed on this thread.
So Rock On.

Really? Let’s look at her book and see if this is what she is really referring to.

From the 6th mansion, chapter 4

1. Something of this sort occurs when the spirit is very closely united to God. It is introduced into this mansion of the empyrean heaven which must be in the centre of our souls for since God resides in them, He must own one of the mansions. While the soul is in ecstasy, our Lord does not appear to wish it to apprehend these mysteries and its inebriation of joy in Him suffices it. But sometimes He is pleased to withdraw it from this rapture when it at once perceives what the mansion contains. On returning to itself, the mind can recall what has been seen but is unable to describe it, nor can it, by its natural abilities, attain to see more of the supernatural than God has chosen to show it.

I see nothing in the video that SoM linked that appears to be in line with what Therese of Avila describes, and this is the only reference in the whole book, It appears to be at best a stretch to use it to try to validate that disorder, when the saint certainly does not give any impression that she is like them in her experiences.

She never mentions glossolalia and the only times she uses the word tongues is in speaking of the member of the bodies of creatures and not the gift.

So…if there’s some valid references that will support your case sauce then, as you put it, “rock on”, but I don’t see it happening.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having gone about as far as this topic can charitably go this thread is now closed.