The Chosen People and The Universe

[SPQR13]

How do we reconcile that out of all the universe, God chose the people of Israel. For the record, I have nothing against the Jewish people, I’m just using them as an example because that’s what we have been taught as Catholics. Think about it. Our own Milky Way galaxy alone contains billions of planets and it would take 100,000 years traveling at the speed of light to go from one end to the other. Multiply that by 50 billion galaxies in the universe and we have a HUGE number of planets. Statistically speaking, there’s a good chance that intelligent life exists elsewhere and it wouldn’t seem unreasonable to believe that God would love them as well. Yet he chose the Israelites.

It’s relatively easy to believe what the Catholic Church teaches if we only consider life on earth, but If you really think about the enormity of the universe, it’s not so easy, at least for me.

I guess what I’m getting at is that my faith in the teachings of the church are starting to waiver. I still believe in God, but how can one religion, on one small planet really profess to teach the absolute truth about salvation?

Any thoughts?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

How do we reconcile that out of all the universe, God chose the people of Israel. For the record, I have nothing against the Jewish people, I’m just using them as an example because that’s what we have been taught as Catholics. Think about it. Our own Milky Way galaxy alone contains billions of planets and it would take 100,000 years traveling at the speed of light to go from one end to the other. Multiply that by 50 billion galaxies in the universe and we have a HUGE number of planets. Statistically speaking, there’s a good chance that intelligent life exists elsewhere and it wouldn’t seem unreasonable to believe that God would love them as well. Yet he chose the Israelites.

It’s relatively easy to believe what the Catholic Church teaches if we only consider life on earth, but If you really think about the enormity of the universe, it’s not so easy, at least for me.

I guess what I’m getting at is that my faith in the teachings of the church are starting to waiver. I still believe in God, but how can one religion, on one small planet really profess to teach the absolute truth about salvation?

Any thoughts?

“Size matters not.” Or put it this way - we’re bound to a single planet (for the moment). Our Creator cares about us. Therefore our Creator has made accessible to us a means of knowing absolutely how to join up with Him. The facts that He wishes us to know, has decided that the time is right for us to know, and that we are on this planet means that the true religion is on this planet.

Look at your question this way: should there be life on other planets, arguing that mere fact that a single planet encompasses a small physical portion of the universe would preclude any planet having a true religion on it. But that doesn’t work because a loving God would reveal Himself to His creation (perhaps in His own time), and a God who did not love His creation would simply cease to cause it to exist (the existence of all things is, in a sense, maintained by God’s love for those things).

Note also that the same argument you are making now could have been used before it became clear that it was possible to cross oceans with reference to continents rather than planets. That is, one could have asked: if it is possible that there are many land masses we can’t get to and don’t know about, how can we claim that the religion that knows the truth is bound up to only one of them? Of course, the barrier between continents has been surpassed now and the truth has spread. It is quiet possible that space travel will eventually be seen as commonplace as well.

Or, in short, if the truth is to be known it must be known somewhere, and it might as well be here as anywhere else.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

How do we reconcile that out of all the universe, God chose the people of Israel. For the record, I have nothing against the Jewish people, I’m just using them as an example because that’s what we have been taught as Catholics. Think about it. Our own Milky Way galaxy alone contains billions of planets and it would take 100,000 years traveling at the speed of light to go from one end to the other. Multiply that by 50 billion galaxies in the universe and we have a HUGE number of planets. Statistically speaking, there’s a good chance that intelligent life exists elsewhere and it wouldn’t seem unreasonable to believe that God would love them as well. Yet he chose the Israelites.

It’s relatively easy to believe what the Catholic Church teaches if we only consider life on earth, but If you really think about the enormity of the universe, it’s not so easy, at least for me.

I guess what I’m getting at is that my faith in the teachings of the church are starting to waiver. I still believe in God, but how can one religion, on one small planet really profess to teach the absolute truth about salvation?

Any thoughts?

Try today’s readings. That may give you a hint.

 

[SPQR13]

Try today’s readings. That may give you a hint.

I’ve read both Friday’s and Saturday’s readings. I’m not sure I get the hint you are referring to. Would you kindly explain.

Thanks

 

[fhansen]

How do we reconcile that out of all the universe, God chose the people of Israel. For the record, I have nothing against the Jewish people, I’m just using them as an example because that’s what we have been taught as Catholics. Think about it. Our own Milky Way galaxy alone contains billions of planets and it would take 100,000 years traveling at the speed of light to go from one end to the other. Multiply that by 50 billion galaxies in the universe and we have a HUGE number of planets. Statistically speaking, there’s a good chance that intelligent life exists elsewhere and it wouldn’t seem unreasonable to believe that God would love them as well. Yet he chose the Israelites.

It’s relatively easy to believe what the Catholic Church teaches if we only consider life on earth, but If you really think about the enormity of the universe, it’s not so easy, at least for me.

I guess what I’m getting at is that my faith in the teachings of the church are starting to waiver. I still believe in God, but how can one religion, on one small planet really profess to teach the absolute truth about salvation?

Any thoughts?

Salvation may well be a universal necessity and, either way, it’s a necessity here. So God chooses a people through which to work out His plan for planet earth? Why not?

 

[SPQR13]

Salvation may well be a universal necessity and, either way, it’s a necessity here. So God chooses a people through which to work out His plan for planet earth? Why not?

I’m not disagreeing with God’s plan for Earth. Just based on the sheer number of planets God has created, He likely loved other planets as well and maybe He has a plan for them too. And if that’s the case then we don’t have the whole story as much as we would like to believe we do.

 

[fhansen]

I’m not disagreeing with God’s plan for Earth. Just based on the sheer number of planets God has created, He likely loved other planets as well and maybe He has a plan for them too. And if that’s the case then we don’t have the whole story as much as we would like to believe we do.

Yes, but as we have no way of knowing its probably not particularly significant. Anyway, It’s interesting to me to consider that God could easily have made this universe for no other purpose than to provide a place for the drama we know as life on this planet to unfold.

 

[danserr]

How do we reconcile that out of all the universe, God chose the people of Israel. For the record, I have nothing against the Jewish people, I’m just using them as an example because that’s what we have been taught as Catholics. Think about it. Our own Milky Way galaxy alone contains billions of planets and it would take 100,000 years traveling at the speed of light to go from one end to the other. Multiply that by 50 billion galaxies in the universe and we have a HUGE number of planets. Statistically speaking, there’s a good chance that intelligent life exists elsewhere and it wouldn’t seem unreasonable to believe that God would love them as well. Yet he chose the Israelites.

It’s relatively easy to believe what the Catholic Church teaches if we only consider life on earth, but If you really think about the enormity of the universe, it’s not so easy, at least for me.

I guess what I’m getting at is that my faith in the teachings of the church are starting to waiver. I still believe in God, but how can one religion, on one small planet really profess to teach the absolute truth about salvation?

Any thoughts?

Well, I should first mention that there is currently no evidence of any sentient life on other planets (bacteria or plant life doesn’t count). The only “evidence” anyone seems to have is the claim that “well, the universe is just so big, that there might be life there somewhere.” But that is not evidence.

Second, suppose there was found to be life on other planets. What would that change?
I don’t see that it would change anything significant. It would still be the case that:

• man sinned and needed redemption
• God became man, died, and rose from the dead to redeem man.
  Life on other planets wouldn’t change any of this. Just because God might love life on other planets would not mean that He would not love us too and be willing to die for us.

C.S. Lewis has an essay on the subject of life on other world’s called “Religion and Rocketry” contained here.

He points out that life on other planets is only a problem if we would know these things were also true:

1. Is there animal life on other planets?
2. Is it rational?
3. Are they fallen?
4. Must their redemption be in the same mode as ours?
5. Has redemption in this way been denied them?

If we ever found that the answer all these 5 questions was “yes”, then we could have a problem, but I have no reason for thinking this will ever be the case.

As to us not having the whole story, we would have the story as much as we need for our own salvation, and that is all we need.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Well, I should first mention that there is currently no evidence of any sentient life on other planets (bacteria or plant life doesn’t count). The only “evidence” anyone seems to have is the claim that “well, the universe is just so big, that there might be life there somewhere.” But that is not evidence.

Second, suppose there was found to be life on other planets. What would that change?
I don’t see that it would change anything significant. It would still be the case that:

• man sinned and needed redemption
• God became man, died, and rose from the dead to redeem man.
  Life on other planets wouldn’t change any of this. Just because God might love life on other planets would not mean that He would not love us too and be willing to die for us.

C.S. Lewis has an essay on the subject of life on other world’s called “Religion and Rocketry” contained here.

He points out that life on other planets is only a problem if we would know these things were also true:

1. Is there animal life on other planets?
2. Is it rational?
3. Are they fallen?
4. Must their redemption be in the same mode as ours?
5. Has redemption in this way been denied them?

If we ever found that the answer all these 5 questions was “yes”, then we could have a problem, but I have no reason for thinking this will ever be the case.

As to us not having the whole story, we would have the story as much as we need for our own salvation, and that is all we need.

The 5 points are interesting; honestly to me the only part where I would be concerned is if 5 wasn’t true. And even then, I’m not so sure it’s an irreconcilable problem.

 

[tabycat]

How do we reconcile that out of all the universe, God chose the people of Israel. For the record, I have nothing against the Jewish people, I’m just using them as an example because that’s what we have been taught as Catholics. Think about it. Our own Milky Way galaxy alone contains billions of planets and it would take 100,000 years traveling at the speed of light to go from one end to the other. Multiply that by 50 billion galaxies in the universe and we have a HUGE number of planets. Statistically speaking, there’s a good chance that intelligent life exists elsewhere and it wouldn’t seem unreasonable to believe that God would love them as well. Yet he chose the Israelites.

It’s relatively easy to believe what the Catholic Church teaches if we only consider life on earth, but If you really think about the enormity of the universe, it’s not so easy, at least for me.

I guess what I’m getting at is that my faith in the teachings of the church are starting to waiver. I still believe in God, but how can one religion, on one small planet really profess to teach the absolute truth about salvation?

Any thoughts?

Humbling is it not? That God choose an unimportant planet to be THE planet in His Plan of Salvation. :extrahappy: :blushing: :knight2: :harp:

 

[SPQR13]

Well, I should first mention that there is currently no evidence of any sentient life on other planets (bacteria or plant life doesn’t count). The only “evidence” anyone seems to have is the claim that “well, the universe is just so big, that there might be life there somewhere.” But that is not evidence.

I never said there was evidence, that’s why I mentioned how long it would take just to travel from one end of the Milky Way to the other. The distances are so vast that we may never have evidence, but that still doesn’t disprove the possibility.

Second, suppose there was found to be life on other planets. What would that change?
I don’t see that it would change anything significant. It would still be the case that:

• man sinned and needed redemption
• God became man, died, and rose from the dead to redeem man.
  Life on other planets wouldn’t change any of this. Just because God might love life on other planets would not mean that He would not love us too and be willing to die for us.

What would change? Jesus may not be the only Son of God.

He points out that life on other planets is only a problem if we would know these things were also true:

1. Is there animal life on other planets?
2. Is it rational?
3. Are they fallen?
4. Must their redemption be in the same mode as ours?
5. Has redemption in this way been denied them?

If we ever found that the answer all these 5 questions was “yes”, then we could have a problem, but I have no reason for thinking this will ever be the case.

“Ever” is a long time. It’s not so long ago that landing on the moon was just in peoples’ imagination.

As to us not having the whole story, we would have the story as much as we need for our own salvation, and that is all we need.

Part of my desire in admitting that “we don’t have the whole story” is that it may unite mankind. No more, “my form of Christianity is better than yours” kind of thing. Think about how many people throughout history have been killed in the name of religion because certain groups thought they “had all they needed.” As it stands now, (fill in the blank with any religion) __________ are still trying to convince others that they are right and others are wrong. And sadly, that is a big barrier to “love God and your neighbor.”

 

[SPQR13]

Humbling is it not? That God choose an unimportant planet to be THE planet in His Plan of Salvation. :extrahappy: :blushing: :knight2: :harp:

Your statement is not humble.

 

[danserr]

I never said there was evidence, that’s why I mentioned how long it would take just to travel from one end of the Milky Way to the other. The distances are so vast that we may never have evidence, but that still doesn’t disprove the possibility.

“Ever” is a long time. It’s not so long ago that landing on the moon was just in peoples’ imagination.

I guess I have a hard time understanding this. If there is no evidence for sentient life on other planets and no likelihood of there being any, I just can’t see how it is reasonable to be concerned because “for all I know there might be some that we can’t find.” I might as well be terrified to cross the street because “well I see no evidence that a car will hit me, but for all I know someone invented an invisible car that will flatten me if I cross the street and obviously I can’t disprove it because I couldn’t see an invisible car if it was there, so I should be worried that an invisible car will hit me.”

What would change? Jesus may not be the only Son of God.

I don’t see how that is the case at all. It would still be the case that Jesus identified Himself with God, “the Father and I are one,” and that God vindicated Him by raising Him from the dead. This would hardly change if we found that God also revealed Himself to another people.

Part of my desire in admitting that “we don’t have the whole story” is that it may unite mankind

We have the whole story as far as God told it to us and as far as it concerns us. Finding sentient alien life would not change Christ’s command that we should spread the gospel to all (human) peoples, hence there would still be the disagreements you refer to .

No more, “my form of Christianity is better than yours” kind of thing. Think about how many people throughout history have been killed in the name of religion because certain groups thought they “had all they needed.” As it stands now, (fill in the blank with any religion) __________ are still trying to convince others that they are right and others are wrong. And sadly, that is a big barrier to “love God and your neighbor.”

Attempted conversion is not a barrier to love of God and neighbor at all. On the contrary it is an act of love because it is in loving obedience to Christ’s command to spread the gospel. It is an act of love of neighbor because we want to bring him into a loving relationship with God.

The fact that some people’s zeal to spread their faith led them to violent excess is hardly evidence that spreading the gospel is bad anymore that Hitler’s abuse of democracy to gain power proves that democracy is bad. Abuse of a thing never invalidates the thing itself.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I read the essay online (Lewis is a wonderfully clear thinker), and I think the best response was that all rational people could be saved through the human incarnation of Jesus on Earth.

 

[SPQR13]

I guess I have a hard time understanding this. If there is no evidence for sentient life on other planets and no likelihood of there being any, I just can’t see how it is reasonable to be concerned because “for all I know there might be some that we can’t find.” I might as well be terrified to cross the street because “well I see no evidence that a car will hit me, but for all I know someone invented an invisible car that will flatten me if I cross the street and obviously I can’t disprove it because I couldn’t see an invisible car if it was there, so I should be worried that an invisible car will hit me.”

A kind person led me to this link. It’s an interview with Fr. Jose Gabriel Funes. He’s the head of The Vatican Observatory in Rome. I hope you’ll find it interesting.

padrefunes.blogspot.com/

 

[danserr]

A kind person led me to this link. It’s an interview with Fr. Jose Gabriel Funes. He’s the head of The Vatican Observatory in Rome. I hope you’ll find it interesting.

padrefunes.blogspot.com/

A pretty interesting interview, thanks.