The Church of the Future – a Lay Church

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You obviously have no knowledge whatsoever of what Modernism was. It was solely focused on the movement, starting primarily among German Protestant theologians in new methods of analysis and critique of the Bible; the movement eventually (in part) lead to an atheistic interpretation of Scripture. It had nothing to do with liturgy, and you are simply spouting the same old urban mythology of those whole shortly after the introduction of the OF, went off the rails claiming all sorts of things.

You also fail to understand the move of secularism throughout society, and the atheistic tendencies behind contraception and no-fault divorce, which has torn up the basic building block of the Church - the family. What goes on in society is reflected in Catholics, as they are living in and amongst society and are susceptible to its siren cries.

Vatican 2 came at a time of great upheaval in society as a whole, and that upheaval in turn affected and infected Catholics to some degree or another.
 
If I had the time or inclination, I’d respond to your claims but I’ll limit myself to this: I understand Modernism perfectly. I’ve read Pascendi several films. I’ve read Liberalism is a Sin. I’ve read Newman’s Biglieto Speech. If you read those materials, you’d know that modernism is the synthesis of all heresies, that it touches on all aspects of Religion (including Liturgy), and continues to wreak havoc in the Church.
 
And as I said; name me one individual the Church has condemend as a heretic in the last 100 years, as one who was spreading heresy in liturgy.

Modernism was called the mother of all heresies; however, it is a word that is not used byy the Vatican any more = and stopped a couple of Popes ago. Relativism and secularism are the terms used where matters are heretical or moving too closely in that direction.

Traditionalists love to throw the word around, as if it had meaning; however, the rubrics of the Mass are disciplinary, not doctrinal. The things you don’t like are matters of discipline, but they are not heretical, as Father Loisy and Father Tyrrell were judged to be. And neither of them were at odds with the Church over liturgy.

Ask a Traditionalist to define Modernism, and one simply gets back that it is the synthesis of heresies (courtesy of Pius 10th), which answers nothing; and then they move on to attack anything they don’t like as sourced in Modernism. and they do so because they are bereft of any definition; and find the word has a great cache for anything they don’t like or don’t approve of.

So please: name me the names of those accused of heresy concerning liturgy.
 
Since Vat II the Church has changed.
In our parish Holy Communion is distributed to the old and house-bound by lay people, so priests can concentrate on Confession and the other Sacraments.
In it there are about 40 lay groups, including bereavement, baptism, funeral, praying with scripture, centering prayer, legion of Mary, Vincent de Paul, book shop, coffee dock, gospel choir, main choir, old folk, church cleaning, movies (tea and coffee supplied free, but not pop corn), lay readers, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

Lay involvement is great. We are all the people of God, the mystical body of Christ.
And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, (Eph. 4:11-12 NAB)

There are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes. As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized (1 Cor. 12:5-13 NAB).
 
NoelFitz said:
Since Vat II the Church has changed.

In our parish Holy Communion is distributed to the old and house-bound by lay people, so priests can concentrate on Confession and the other Sacraments.
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Visiting the old and house-bound by the laity is fine, so long as these people are not forgotten by the clerics AND if their time is actually being spent on hearing confessions and other sacraments. My parish of 5,600 has twenty-four (24) people on the payroll. 24! It would be far more probable for me to run into my pastor on a local golf course than at church. That’s very wrong.
NoelFitz said:
In it there are about 40 lay groups, including bereavement, baptism, funeral, praying with scripture, centering prayer, legion of Mary, Vincent de Paul, book shop, coffee dock, gospel choir, main choir, old folk, church cleaning, movies (tea and coffee supplied free, but not pop corn), lay readers, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.
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All that sounds fine – except for the “centering prayer” and for mentioning EMsHC as if their use was a positive thing rather than a required thing. Your posting reminds me of the now infamous quote from the now disgraced Roger Cardinal Mahony: “What some refer to as a ‘vocations crisis’ is, rather, one of the many fruits of the Second Vatican Council. It is a sign of God’s deep love for the Church, and an invitation to a more creative and effective ordering of gifts and energy in the Body of Christ.”

He and his archdiocese did a horrible job with priestly vocations and rather than own up to it, VC2 was used as an excuse. That was deplorable. Thankfully vocations are beginning to recover under his successor. I’m curious, do you have many clerics at your parish?
 
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Thanks for positive comments about my parish, http://www.newtownparkparish.com/

We are very fortunate in having three excellent priests, aged from early 70s to late 80s.
I omitted several groups, especially the Finance Group and a group preparing for the World Meeting of Families which will be held in Ireland next year, and at which the Pope may be present.
We have only one part-time employee, the parish secretary.
The priests are excellent, being fully committed to building up a friendly, encouraging and dedicated community for God.
We are blessed.
I think our parish is great, but I am biased.
 
NoelFitz said:
Since Vat II the Church has changed.
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How right you are. There’s a huge priest shortage. The seminaries have largely disappeared. Nuns no longer look like nuns and their orders are dying. Parishes are closing. In many places, the liturgy has been trivialised. The missionary effort has been transformed into social care. One pope resigned and now it’s claimed we have a ‘papal diarchy.’ The other Pope is accused of heresy and can’t answer simple questions. Luther is praised. The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate are crushed. The head of The Sovereign Military Order of Malta is forced to step down because he doesn’t like condoms. And the Pope tells Catholics to stop breeding like rabbits. Francis won’t judge gays but a famous American Jesuit seems to support the homosexual lifestyle. A top Cardinal’s secretary is caught in a cocaine-fueled gay orgy at the Vatican - but everything is A-OK because he supports Amoris Laetitia.

The springtime of Vatican II is in full bloom.
 
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Saxum said:
How right you are. There’s a huge priest shortage. The seminaries have largely disappeared. Nuns no longer look like nuns and their orders are dying. Parishes are closing. In many places, the liturgy has been trivialised. The missionary effort has been transformed into social care. One pope resigned and now it’s claimed we have a ‘papal diarchy.’ The other Pope is accused of heresy and can’t answer simple questions. Luther is praised. The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate are crushed. The head of The Sovereign Military Order of Malta is forced to step down because he doesn’t like condoms. And the Pope tells Catholics to stop breeding like rabbits. Francis won’t judge gays but a famous American Jesuit seems to support the homosexual lifestyle. A top Cardinal’s secretary is caught in a cocaine-fueled gay orgy at the Vatican - but everything is A-OK because he supports Amoris Laetitia.

The springtime of Vatican II is in full bloom.
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My diocese has no shortage of priests. We would always welcome more, but there is no shortage.

The two seminaries my diocese typically uses are still going strong.

No parishes are closing. In fact 2 new ones have opened in the past 3-4 years.

Your comments about Pope Francis are repulsive.
 
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Duesenberg said:
Your comments about Pope Francis are repulsive.
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I’m confused. Which comments do you find repulsive? Everything I wrote above can be verified. And please note: I did not accuse the Holy Father of heresy - I simply stated the FACT that others (scholars) have accuse him of seven heresies. And as for the questions…We’re still waiting for him to answer the dubia. And finally, Francis himself said ‘who am I to judge?’ when asked about homosexuals. I think you should recant your unfair statement about ‘my comments’ because I haven’t made any.

The only thing I did was agree with the OP. The Church has indeed changed since Vatican II.
 
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That upheaval was carefully planned and coordinated. We didn’t end up so badly infected today in a very short time, since the poison was dripped into our veins slowly, year after year for 40 years through the media. A little bad, then a little more and a little more. Today, the media depicts bad to very bad behaviors as “entertainment.” No, they want to us to get used to them. The news is no longer the news but issue advocacy.
 
The Church was filled with dissidents that tried to destroy it from within, and using Vatican II as a false excuse.
 
edwest211 said:
The Church was filled with dissidents that tried to destroy it from within, and using Vatican II as a false excuse.
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I couldn’t agree more, Ed. I often wonder where these dissidents come from? I’ve seen dissidents on both the liberal and the traditional side. Both camps see Vatican II as an event that changed the Church. I reject this belief entirely - Including the notion of the ‘Church of the Future - a Lay Church.’ That is a dangerous, pernicious idea.

Vatican II was a valid Ecumenical Council whose true teaching was drowned out by those who used it to further their own agenda.
 
I agree with you. Vatican II was used as a “window of opportunity” to begin a coordinated attack against the Church and the general populace right after it ended. There have always been dissidents. But those radicals and anarchists outside the Church would join in a two-prong attack. You can only read a small part of the following but it gets the basic idea across:


The media, beginning in 1970, began a slow capitulation that continued for each decade that followed, slowly poisoning hearts and minds. Entertainment stopped being entertainment. If we had gone from Ozzie and Harriet to Two and a Half Men overnight, people would have thrown out their TV sets. Now, too much of TV is about presenting immoral lifestyles, words and actions as OK, normal or average. I lived through it. I reject the belief that Vatican II “changed the Church.” Who tore out communion/altar rails, who took down statues, who removed the high altars? That’s why, in recent years, all of that is being put back and the general reason given is “they were removed during the 1960s” by persons unknown.
 
Remember the Church is a holy Church made up of unholy people, who stand in need of God’s mercy.

He is Lord, He is Lord
He has risen from the dead
And He is Lord

Praise the God of heaven, for his mercy endures forever. (Ps. 136:26 NAB)
 
NoelFitz said:
Remember the Church is a holy Church made up of unholy people, who stand in need of God’s mercy. …
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And also of holy people, those in the state of sanctifying grace, who pray for and help strengthen others by good example.
 
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