The Church: What happened to the call to holiness?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JoyToBeCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JoyToBeCatholic

Guest
Do I have a problem with my view of the church?

Correct me if I’m wrong, and no, I don’t know the personal or spiritual lives of every person in my parish, but, most people are Sunday church-goers and, of those I know well, my family included, give little thought to taking it any further than that. Confession is not a well sought after sacrament where I am, and I worry about this complacency that many seem to hold. And what is worse, are the priests who give poor advice in confession - advice contrary to the teachings of the magisterium. We have lukewarm priests and lukewarm catholics that make up a large portion of the body of christ. Christ said He would “spew thee out of thy mouth” if one was lukewarm. What ever happened to “you may know a tree by it’s fruit”. One look in my parish and any other in my large city and there is very little fruit. It’s so bad I can’t even bring myself to go anymore. My children are exposed to more immodesty, irreverence and indifference to God in the church environment than I allow in any other area of their lives.

Are we, or are we not, all called to be holy? Why then does the church permit this? What about immodest dress? Many dressed inappropriately even for mass. Not a thought. And not a word said from the pastor. What about irreverent reception of communion? I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

Now again, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that if someone isn’t interested in growing in their relationship with/conformity to - Christ, the church is okay with that. And for those who feel so called (which is an incorrect understanding IMO, b/c we are all called to holiness) there are religious orders and confraternities and such, but for the most part, the church is ok with the sort of luke-warm people (to use a more polite term) who regularly attend.

I think I don’t understand this. I am frustrated, but I feel like I have a wrong view of this. I explained it as best I could and would appreciate any insight anyone has. Does the church truly call us all to be holy? When do they admonish people for doing wrong? Why does it/she allow so much corruption to remain within? Am I being too judgemental? Is this not the place of the church? And yes, I am aware that in the past the church has gone to the other extreme, but today the catholic church is barely recognizable as God’s church with the exception of the religious orders.

Sincerely,
~donna
 
40.png
JoyToBeCatholic:
Are we, or are we not, all called to be holy? Why then does the church permit this? What about immodest dress? Many dressed inappropriately even for mass. Not a thought. And not a word said from the pastor. What about irreverent reception of communion? I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

Now again, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that if someone isn’t interested in growing in their relationship with/conformity to - Christ, the church is okay with that.
~donna
Click to expand...
Pardon me for distilling the quote. Let’s try it this way: Before we posit that the Church is ok with weak faith, lemme ask this, if the Church is NOT ok with it, then what exactly should the Church do about it? In other words, granted we all want to see strong faith (or at least a show of healthy respect) what would you do with the slackers?

Scott
 
Scott Waddell:
Pardon me for distilling the quote. Let’s try it this way: Before we posit that the Church is ok with weak faith, lemme ask this, if the Church is NOT ok with it, then what exactly should the Church do about it? In other words, granted we all want to see strong faith (or at least a show of healthy respect) what would you do with the slackers?

Scott
Click to expand...
I don’t know. I asked myself that while I posted it. The problem is that it has gotten so far out of hand. And the main reason is b/c it isn’t politically correct I guess to talk about these things in the homily I guess.

So, it’s too far gone and thats it? We all have to just deal with it? I’m sorry, but I can’t.
 
If one doesn’t like the influences of the world on their children in the public school, they can send them to private, or homeschool them. Where do you go when the corruption is in the church? Homechurch?
 
You live by example!!! Start some renewal groups going, get people interested in retreats, start bible-study groups!

I think the largest problem is that we, the laiety have spent the last few decades waiting for the clergy to lift us up, to feed our spiritual needs. Well, the clergy is so overworked that they are often to pre-occupied managing the parishes rather than feeding the sheep!

It’s time for us to feed each other! I’m seeing that in our Diocese (Beaumont, TX) and it’s wonderful. The “Acts” retreat has lifted several of our largest churches and is branching out to some of the other parishes and IT IS WONDERFUL!!! At our parish, we’ve started adult education classes and they are growing. Don’t wait for anyone else to start it - step up to the plate!!!

Notworthy
 
I agree with Not Worthy. But it may not even be that drastic. Do you regularly support and attend parish group function. How many parish group do you belong to. Teach by example, maybe by you bearing fruit more plants will grow.
 
40.png
NotWorthy:
You live by example!!! Start some renewal groups going, get people interested in retreats, start bible-study groups!

I think the largest problem is that we, the laiety have spent the last few decades waiting for the clergy to lift us up, to feed our spiritual needs. Well, the clergy is so overworked that they are often to pre-occupied managing the parishes rather than feeding the sheep!

It’s time for us to feed each other! I’m seeing that in our Diocese (Beaumont, TX) and it’s wonderful. The “Acts” retreat has lifted several of our largest churches and is branching out to some of the other parishes and IT IS WONDERFUL!!! At our parish, we’ve started adult education classes and they are growing. Don’t wait for anyone else to start it - step up to the plate!!!

Notworthy
Click to expand...
Yes, we do have studies, but, of course, it’s not so much the “lukewarm” that go to those. I’ve tried to start a renewal in my town. It fizzled. My pastor never took it to the bishop. He did start putting an article in each bulletin about the importance of the Eucharist and the Real Presence though, but not everyone takes a bulletin, and not everyone who takes one reads it.

What about correction though? Is it not the church’s place to correct people when they are in error? I see this passage often cited in the apologetic forum - about admonishing the sinner once in private, then 2 people admonish him, and if he doesn’t listen then bring the matter to the church. If he doesn’t even listen to the church… At what point did such blatant irreverance and disrespect become the norm? It started with a few that were not addressed and the problem multiplied and got completely out of hand.

We used to have adoration every first friday for 24 hours. now it is only 8 hours, and they play Christian rock during it. It’s ridiculous. The first communicants this year, on retreat, were taught about the vestments, paten, etc. by the youth group. The boy plopped the paten up on the altar and said “you’re at your friend’s house. This is the bowl. This is the cup for the soda” (plop). “And here are the chips” (hosts thrown onto paten). I mean COME ON!!! These kids are 7 years old. They are at “the age of reason”, correct? Are they imbuciles? They can’t comprehend that this is Jesus? That the paten and chalice are sacred also? That everything should be treated with reverence? It is terribly hard for people to contemplate God’s existence in this world we live in. It is a difficult concept that God gives Himself to us in the Eucharist. It is impossible to grasp these truths when they are presented in such an irreverential way.

We are ready to leave. And this is the best parish in our city, and one of the best in our diocese. We can’t do these things at the Franciscan monastery - only confession and communion - not CCD and such - and to top it off I’ve gotten some outlandish spiritual advice from them in the past and wouldn’t trust them to guide my children.

Ranting aside though, I don’t understand why the entire church is not just like one big religious order. They are Christians striving to live out the gospel. They feel called apart from the world and they give their lives to Christ. That is not the definition (IMO) of someone with a “special calling” to a “vocation”. We all, as Christians, have that calling. I want to worship with Christians - those who truly strive to live that way - to encourage one another and to admonish one another when error enters in. That is what the early church looks like to me, and it is how I believe Christ meant His Church to be. I thought the gates of hell would not prevail, but I fear they have in this church, and I know that’s a bad statement.
 
hilde the dog:
I agree with Not Worthy. But it may not even be that drastic. Do you regularly support and attend parish group function. How many parish group do you belong to. Teach by example, maybe by you bearing fruit more plants will grow.
Click to expand...
Yes, I attend the studies and I used to attend adoration until the rock music became a regular thing with that. The other parishes are dead - there is little going on there, and what is going on I cannot attend. I have many small children and getting to all of these would be impossible. I almost joined the secular order of discalced carmelites but coudn’t b/c of the distance and my family responsibilities. But my point is that all of the church ought to be like the orders. It’s like the REAL church is A) hidden in the religious orders, and B) impossible for the youth to be a part of. No wonder there is a shortage of priests, and parishes are closing left and right - especially here in Massachusetts.
 
Btw, I do realize that there are people who are serious about their faith outside of religious orders. Typically though, once someone makes that commitment, they look for a community of like-minded people for mutual encouragement and fellowship.
 
40.png
NotWorthy:
You live by example!!! Start some renewal groups going, get people interested in retreats, start bible-study groups!

I think the largest problem is that we, the laiety have spent the last few decades waiting for the clergy to lift us up, to feed our spiritual needs. Well, the clergy is so overworked that they are often to pre-occupied managing the parishes rather than feeding the sheep!

It’s time for us to feed each other! I’m seeing that in our Diocese (Beaumont, TX) and it’s wonderful. The “Acts” retreat has lifted several of our largest churches and is branching out to some of the other parishes and IT IS WONDERFUL!!! At our parish, we’ve started adult education classes and they are growing. Don’t wait for anyone else to start it - step up to the plate!!!

Notworthy
Click to expand...
This is a good idea.

How does your diocese insure that these programs follow orthodox teachings?
 
Walking_Home said:
---------------------------------------

This is a good idea.

How does your diocese insure that these programs follow orthodox teachings?
Click to expand...

I think I missed this. What is “Acts”? Is is something that just those who are interested are going to go to (like everything else), or is it aimed at the entire parish? I’ll look it up.

Thanks
 
Just a thought Donna. Possibly some of the people from your parish go to mass during the week and go to confession near thier place of employment due to circumstances.

I know I am forced to do this. Beyond that, not really being one to “step up to the plate” (I think these things are substantially easier for some people then others), I often find myself wondering just how a fairly shy person like myself could actually get more involved. I wouldn’t discount this being the case with many of your fellow parisheners.

Actually I am not shy. But being a fairly new revert I am reserved about stepping up to the plate. I still feel the “newbie” and do not feel I have a firm enough grip on my faith. I only step up to the plate when comfortable with something.

I suspect there may be plenty of people in your parish who may feel the same way as I do.

Funny that I read your post this evening. On my commute home I was just reading an essay by C.S.Lewis entitled Membership which talks of the body-of-the-church. 😉

By the way, my parish is in Massachusetts also.
 
40.png
Mijoy2:
Just a thought Donna. Possibly some of the people from your parish go to mass during the week and go to confession near thier place of employment due to circumstances.

I know I am forced to do this. Beyond that, not really being one to “step up to the plate” (I think these things are substantially easier for some people then others), I often find myself wondering just how a fairly shy person like myself could actually get more involved. I wouldn’t discount this being the case with many of your fellow parisheners.

Actually I am not shy. But being a fairly new revert I am reserved about stepping up to the plate. I still feel the “newbie” and do not feel I have a firm enough grip on my faith. I only step up to the plate when comfortable with something.

I suspect there may be plenty of people in your parish who may feel the same way as I do.

Funny that I read your post this evening. On my commute home I was just reading an essay by C.S.Lewis entitled Membership which talks of the body-of-the-church. 😉

By the way, my parish is in Massachusetts also.
Click to expand...
Hi there,

I never heard of “Membership” but I’m not familiar with C.S. Lewis other than the Chronicles from my youth.

I do consider those who attend during the week and I am quite familiar with them, although, it’s not many. I am sure some go outside of our parish too, but I’m really concerned with the complacency and lack of reverence - something I don’t see with those who come daily.

I don’t know. I’ve been diving into scripture so much this past year and lukewarmness has really gotten to me.
Matt 20: "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "
Click to expand...
These passages frighten me. As do these:
23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Click to expand...
Are these passages ever considered? I am worried about the state of the church. It is so large, and yet few enter the “strait gate”. I don’t know why I am worrying. Jesus said it would be so. I think I’ve always just assumed that more people than we ever imagined would make it, but that’s not at all what the Gospels say. I’ve always been such an advocate of the Divine Mercy message, but it means nothing unless people accept it.
 
Donna,

I understand your frustration – I’ve been Catholic eight years, and I’ve observed what you have. But what you see in the Catholic Church isn’t only in the Catholic Church – it’s in non-Catholic churches as well (I used to be evangelical Protestant). I think it’s a case of those in the Church being conformed to the world rather than to Christ. Yes, the Church still calls us to holiness, but unfortunately not everyone in the Church preaches that call or lives up to it. This has always been the case. If you read the New Testament letters, much of the issues addressed are Christians who were teaching/embracing heresy or living immoral lives, sometimes even more immoral than their pagan neighbors.

Pray and sacrifice for the Church and those in your parish (that’s what I’m doing). I’m dealing with a heretical DRE and uninformed Catholics misled by her, and I’m just trying to quietly and consistently offer truth in my little corner of the Church. Take all your frustrations to the Lord in prayer and let Him bear them.

I think I remember seeing on EWTN right after Pope Benedict XVI was elected, that during an interview while he was still a Cardinal, he commented that he saw the future of the Church as being smaller but filled with more faithful Catholics. Jesus is going to prune the branches and renew His Church.
 
40.png
Veritas41:
Donna,

I understand your frustration – I’ve been Catholic eight years, and I’ve observed what you have. But what you see in the Catholic Church isn’t only in the Catholic Church – it’s in non-Catholic churches as well (I used to be evangelical Protestant). I think it’s a case of those in the Church being conformed to the world rather than to Christ. Yes, the Church still calls us to holiness, but unfortunately not everyone in the Church preaches that call or lives up to it. This has always been the case. If you read the New Testament letters, much of the issues addressed are Christians who were teaching/embracing heresy or living immoral lives, sometimes even more immoral than their pagan neighbors.

Pray and sacrifice for the Church and those in your parish (that’s what I’m doing). I’m dealing with a heretical DRE and uninformed Catholics misled by her, and I’m just trying to quietly and consistently offer truth in my little corner of the Church. Take all your frustrations to the Lord in prayer and let Him bear them.

I think I remember seeing on EWTN right after Pope Benedict XVI was elected, that during an interview while he was still a Cardinal, he commented that he saw the future of the Church as being smaller but filled with more faithful Catholics. Jesus is going to prune the branches and renew His Church.
Click to expand...
Wow, I’ve never considered that. I guess I’ve just never really thought of these things before. I’ve been pretty complacent myself for the most part. Considering all of this has been quite eye-opening.
Thanks for the encouragment.
~donna
 
40.png
JoyToBeCatholic:
I think I missed this. What is “Acts”? Is is something that just those who are interested are going to go to (like everything else), or is it aimed at the entire parish? I’ll look it up.

Thanks
Click to expand...
The Acts Retreats started in San Antonio. They are based loosely on the Crusillo’s but they stress parish unity, as the retreats are usually geared toward a single parish at a time. Each retreat has a spiritual director, who is a priest, so they are doctrinely sound.

Notworthy

Wonderful, wonderful retreats!
 
Walking_Home said:
---------------------------------------

This is a good idea.

How does your diocese insure that these programs follow orthodox teachings?
Click to expand...

Our adult class? I usually give my priest a copy of what we’re presenting. Sometimes the topic takes us into areas that may cause me to tread on rocky ground, but if I don’t know, I tell them “I don’t know”. If I think I know, and I’m wrong, I’m corrected, and make sure to pass on the correction. (This has happened once this year.)

Notworthy
 
40.png
Mijoy2:
Actually I am not shy. But being a fairly new revert I am reserved about stepping up to the plate. I still feel the “newbie” and do not feel I have a firm enough grip on my faith. I only step up to the plate when comfortable with something.
Click to expand...
“Being the newbie” and completing your RCIA usually means that you know more about your Faith then 80-90% of the rest of the Parish.

We are actively recruiting converts to get involved in something in our parish. They have helped bring a new appreciation to several Catholic “things” like the Eucharist and Confession and all the other peculiarities that we Cradle Catholics tend to take for granted.

Notworthy
 
Donna,
When I said originally “Live by Example”, I was reminded of a lady in our parish. I used to be one of those “pew warmers” that often managed to fall asleep before Father’s homilies were even close to finishing. My side still has scars from the many times my wife poked me to wake up!

Anyway, this lady sometimes sat next to me at Mass, and I noticed that even though we were listening to the same liturgy, she was getting WAY more out of it than I was. It got me to thinking that maybe the problem is with me, for I saw an intense joy in this woman during and after the liturgy.

Her example is one of the seeds that was planted in me that caused my faith to grow.

Notworthy
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top