The Conversion of the Jews: a Catholic theory

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behold, the way of the saint is three stages,

the purgative
the illuminative
the unitive

the first stage, the purgative, is the dark night of the senses, the pain of doing penance to beat out of your flesh the primary sinful tendencies.

The second stage, the illumination, begins in light, the saint progressively growing in the love of God. But it grows darker in pain in the soul, for the deeper the saint fathoms the Divine Mysteries, the more cold and sinful is the world. So the illuminative culminates in the dark night of the soul.

In the third stage, the unitive, the saint emerges from the dark night of the soul vindicated, the revelation of God shown to be true, even though the world had called it a lie in the dark night. And in the unitive, the saint finally walks with God perfectly in His Will, fully prepared to do whatever God wants Him to.

At the end of the unitive, the saint then enters the will of God fully by following his Savior unto death, into the Passion that is martyrdom, the total abandonment into the hands of God.

This, then, is the Way of the Saint in Catholic Spirituality.

I then theorize this, by simply looking at the history of the People of Old, and the history of the New Covenant (and its presumed completion).

Behold, the just of the Jews walked this path of the saint in their HISTORY! IOW, my theory is simply THIS: the Way of the Saint is just a microcosmic example of what the People of God must pass through historically as they traverse the necessary spiritual stages of their history!

Simply look at the Jewish history first. The Jews passed through three ages according to Augustine, who also says these ages are “declared in the Gospel…”

Quote:
Five ages of the world, accordingly, having been now completed (there has entered the sixth). Of these ages the first is from the beginning of the human race, that is, from Adam, who was the first man that was made, down to Noah, who constructed the ark at the time of the flood. Then the second extends from that period on to Abraham, who was called the father indeed of all nations which should follow the example of his faith, but who at the same time in the way of natural descent from his own flesh was the father of the destined people of the Jews; which people, previous to the entrance of the Gentiles into the Christian faith, was the one people among all the nations of all lands that worshipped the one true God: from which people also Christ the Saviour was decreed to come according to the flesh. For these turning-points of those two ages occupy an eminent place in the ancient books. On the other hand, those of the other three ages are also declared in the Gospel, where the descent of the Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh is likewise mentioned. For the third age extends from Abraham on to David the king; the fourth from David on to that captivity whereby the people of God passed over into Babylonia; and the fifth from that transmigration down to the advent of our Lord Jesus Christ. With His coming the sixth age has entered on its process; so that now the spiritual grace, which in previous times was known to a few patriarchs and prophets, may be made manifest to all nations; to the intent that no man should worship God but freely, fondly desiring of Him not the visible rewards of His services and the happiness of this present life, but that eternal life alone in which he is to enjoy God Himself: in order that in this sixth age the mind of man may be renewed after the image of God, even as on the sixth day man was made after the image of God.
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These three ages mimmick the stages of the saint. Simply walk through the stages.

For inbetween Abraham and David is the purgative way, the dark night of the senses that was Egyptian enslavement for the People of God.

And the way of David unto the captivity in Babylon is the way of illumination, for from David sprung forth afterwards the prophets, who elaborated on the Law given by Moses, growing ever deeper into the knowledge of God. And behold, as the Prophets journeyed with God, the Jewish world grew graver in sin and coldness. Finally, in the times immediately preceding the Exile, the Prophets are in a dark night. For everything God had commanded the Prophets to carry unto the People was rejected and scoffed at. Consider the Lamentations of Jeremiah. Was it not a dark night for the prophets as they approached the Exile, preaching to deaf ears and scoffers?

But behold, the dark night was vindicated in the Captivity, for when Babylon fulfilled prophecy and came down and plundered, the Prophets were shewn to have been from God, they were shewn to have spoken from the Almighty. And the People that had once scoffed at their rebukes and warnings now heeded them, and their hearts repented.

And behold, as the Jews were restored after the exile, idolatry and major sin were finally mostly rooted out, until the times of Antiochus, when apostasy would come one more time before the Messiah. Behold, there was peace and a certain more special relationship between the Jews and their God in the time when they returned to Judah in the reign of the Persians. Was this not the unitive phase of the Jews?

And surely did the unitive phase conclude with the martyrdom of Maccabbees, where the just Jews who resisted the OT Antichrist Antiochus, did many times die the most horrible deaths to bear witness to their true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, rather than worship the false Greek gods that the blasphemer Antiochus attempted to impose on them.

And just as the saint crosses the threshold of the age in death at martyrdom, so also, the martyrdom of the Maccabbean age was the final history of the OT before a new age similarly dawned, the Coming of the Messiah.

So then truly, the three ages delineated by Augustine, are surely a type of the spiritual Way that the righteous of the Jews walked historically.

In the next segment, I shall show that the Church shall, if the mystics are right, walk the very same path, the path of her individual saints.
 
Now for the way of the Church.

Therefore, just as after Babel, the confounding of languages and the calling of Abraham, the People of God went into the purgative, Egyptian oppression, so also did, after the reconciliation of tongues at Pentecost, did the Church pass into the purgative, the dark night of the senses of the brutal, three-century-wide persecution of Pagan Rome.

And just as the Jews were delivered unto a kingdom and given the Prophets, who expounded the Word of the God in the Law, so also was the Church rescued from the dark night of pagan Rome and led into the Kingdom of Catholic Christendom. And in the ages following Constantine, the history is one of illuminiation, like the Prophets of Old.

For just as the Prophets developed the Torah in their Scriptures and preaching, so also has the Catholic Church developed the Word of God through doctrinal development, expounding and infallibly interpreting, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the meaning of the Deposit of Faith. For this is the history of the last 1700 years. The early councils, the Middle Ages, Florence, Trent, Vatican I, Vatican II.

And just as the prophets descended into the dark night of the soul, into a world that considered the totality of their witness a lie, so progressively, in the modern age, has the Church passed into a dark night of the soul, the modern secular apostasy, that scoffs at all Catholic teaching, and that considers itself to be utterly independent of God and His Love and Law and Truth.

This is where we are now.

And what remains? The mystics prophecies, if correct, complete the story, in a manner that completely fulfills the way of the saint and the Jewish way.

What we now expect is a Minor Chastisment, analogous to the Babylonian Exile, in which the world shall be punished by its sins, but in the process be restored to the Gospel, and a glorious age of peace, the Triumph of Mary’s Immaculate Heart, and the social reign of the Gospel, the fullness of the Gentiles.

Is that not the unitive way, in which the Gentiles shall walk in the will of God, as the individual saint does, and as the Jews did after they returned from the exile in peace?

And behold, the final darkness comes, just as it did for the Jews prior to Christ’s first coming.

For behold, the end of the world must come, and the mystics, in general, say that eventually the world in the age of peace shall eventually grow tired of prosperity, and fall into the great apostasy, where the world will finally end, the Antichrist of the NT shall come, and vicsously persecute the Church, as did Antiochus, the final martyrdom, after which shall occur, the Second Coming of Christ.

and the general Fathers say that the Jews will not convert until the time of Antichrist. Why? What are the implications? I will post that next?
 
Are not the implications this? That the way of the saint is the key to very mystery of the conversion of the Jews?

That the Church shall say to the Jews, in the times of Antichrist, do you not see? We, the Gentiles are now where YOU were in the time just before CHRIST! And OUR history as the Catholic Church has fulfilled YOUR history before the Christ.

Your history, as Jews, is the key to the mystery that opens your eyes. YOUR way was the way of our saints, and OUR way.

Consider the parellels of Christ in the Gospels, and how the number THREE repeatedly occurs.

Christ prayed THREE times in the garden of gethsemane to be delivered, and only in the THIRD time (per one of the Gospels) is He FULLY prepared to accept the Will of the Father, just as in the way of the saint, only in the unitive phase is the saint fully prepared to do whatever the will of God is.

Christ fell (according to Tradition), THREE times, and in the third time, He could no longer raise Himself in His human nature. In the third darkness of the Church above, the Gentiles are irrevocably fallen (because it is the end of the world), hence, they “cannot get up.” So too, were the Jews blinded in the third darkness, unable to recognize their Messiah when he came afterwards.

In the Resurrection, Christ speaks to Mary Magdelene THREE times, and only in third time does she recognize Him. (Only in the third darkness above do the Jews recognize their Messiah).

For THREE days and three nights, Mary and Joseph searched for Jesus, and only after the third do they find Him in the Temple. They scold Him, “Jesus, WHY did you do this to us? For these three days, we have searched for you in sorrow!” And what did Jesus say, “Well, duh!!! Where did you think I would be except ABOUT My Father’s Business”

Is this not a deeper meaning:

shall not the Jews, after three ages, say to Jesus, “How could you do this to us? For three great ages we have searched for you in sorrow!”

And will not Jesus say this: “Well duhhhh! What did you think? Did you think God would take a vacation for three great ages of history, and leave you destitute? Did you not KNOW, that I needed to be about My Father’s business”, meaning, “for, for the three ages you looked for me, I was busy doing my Father’s business: redeemimg the Gentiles for three great ages, just as I walked with You as the pre-Incarnate Son for three ages!”
 
I would like to draw further parallels between the analogous ages of the Old and New Covenants.

Let us consider the parallels of the first stage, the purgative.

We must first understand the purgative in relation to the saint. When we begin our journey with God, we have sinful tendencies. Usually at least one is serious. The only way to overcome sin is to do the purgative phase, which is penance and suffering. “Except ye do penance, ye shall all perish.”

For the flesh rebels against the Spirit (“the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”). Therefore, voluntary sufferings must be imposed upon the flesh to beat out of it the sinful tendencies. Fasting, wool shirts, ashes on food, thornbushes, etc.

These are the ways of some of the saints. Similarly, in history, as God establishes His People (Abraham, the Church), the kingdom of the devil without naturally resists the incoming of the Spirit. For just as the flesh is antagonistic to the Spirit, so, because the People of God must flourish, for they have God’s blessing, the devil’s kingdom perceives as a threat to their dominion. Hence, the oppression of the People of God, and the attending great physical suffering for the People, is the inevitable stage that comes in history in response to birth of the Covenant People. Therefore, the Egyptian Enslavement, the Persecutions of Pagan Rome.

Inevitably, they are delivered, but how?

Here is where the Old differs from the New?

For how were the Jews delivered: by might and force, miraculous intervention. The Jews were taken UNwillingly from Egypt. So stubborn was their fallen nature, the chariots followed the Jews into the Sea to their death. And why must God intervene? Because the fallen nature is as of yet, too stubborn, it cannot fathom redemptive suffering. Therefore, God must vindicate His power and judgement by taking the Jews miraculously, by power, against the will of Egypt.

Not so in the New. For the Church was delivered from the persecutions of the pagans not by being brought miraculously and unwillingly from the hands of pagans, but by the selfless love of the martyrs that did not FLEE the oppression, but embraced their torments and bloodshed, and offered their sufferings for the conversion of the world. Behold, the Jews were delivered by power and force, the Church by the love and the glory of the martyrs. For the martyrs “loved not their lives unto death, and they overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb. Therefore, rejoice you heavens, for the accuser of your brethren is cast out! For the kingdom and the power and the authority of Our God and His Christ has come!” Revelation 12.

Tertullian said, the blood of the martyrs was the seed of Christians. And so it was. As the persecutions intensified, the Church only grew. therefore, the deliverance from oppression in the New Covenant glorified God even more than the Old, for in the Old, the just were taken unwillingly OUT of the land of oppression. In the New, the oppressors REPENTED and ENTERED the kingdom.

Glory to God. Behold, then, the typology that shows that some things of Old and New are the same, and some things are different. And in both cases, what is different in the New is BETTER than the Old.
 
reen12 said:
In terms of Judaic beliefs, I look to Judaic websites to convey, clearly and concisely, Judaic thought. :tiphat:

judaism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=judaism&cdn=religion&tm=36&gps=139_836_1012_590&f=11&tt=14&bt=0&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Maimonides Thirteen Principles of Faith:

ou.org/torah/rambam.htm

reen12
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thank you, Reen, for sharing, but I am not looking at Judaism the way Jews currently believe. SInce Christ, the Jews are partially closed to the fullness of Revelation. I am trying to unravel the mystery of how their eyes shall be opened from a Catholic view.

I don’t think it would ever be possible in any salvation history that the People of the Prefiguring Covenant would be able to handle the fullness when it came. I think it necessary according to the fallen nature that when the Messiah comes, the majority of His own shall not be able to accept Him.

I think it is necessary for the People of the New to walk in the spiritual path of the Jews fully before they can see their whole Old Covenant fulfilled in the New.
 
Hello, spauline,

quote: spauline
thank you, Reen, for sharing, but I am not looking at Judaism the way Jews currently believe. SInce Christ, the Jews are partially closed to the fullness of Revelation. I am trying to unravel the mystery of how their eyes shall be opened from a Catholic view.
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Yes, I understand this, from a Catholic point of view.

That Christian Churches hold that Jesus of Nazareth is Messiah, the God/man, is surely understood.
That members of one Church assert that - their’s is the true faith - this, too, is understood.
[We see this reality, daily - as members of one Christian Church testify to others,
hoping that others will see the truth, and convert.]

The Christian beliefs:
-that God is one - in three Divine Persons
-that mankind is born - in ontological sin [original sin]
-that mankind needed a savior, to save them from this original sin
-that Jesus brings both justification and salvation
-that Jesus effected atonement ‘at-one-ment’]

are understood, as Christian beliefs. And there they remain,
as God’s chosen people remain God’s chosen people.
As the covenant made - is the covenant, still - with no new
convenant having been made, no original sin, no need for
being saved from same [redemption, salvation, justification
atonement]

hence, no need for a savior, in the Christian defintion of same.
Mercy, forgiveness, a green pasture, salvation - all are to be
found, in the Hebrew scriptures.

One does not look for that which is already found and granted. http://bestsmileys.com/waving/5.gif

Just my thought, spauline, reflecting on the theory offered.

reen
 
reen12 said:
Hello, spauline,

quote: spauline

Yes, I understand this, from a Catholic point of view.

That Christian Churches hold that Jesus of Nazareth is Messiah, the God/man, is surely understood.
That members of one Church assert that - their’s is the true faith - this, too, is understood.
[We see this reality, daily - as members of one Christian Church testify to others,
hoping that others will see the truth, and convert.]

The Christian beliefs:
-that God is one - in three Divine Persons
-that mankind is born - in ontological sin [original sin]
-that mankind needed a savior, to save them from this original sin
-that Jesus brings both justification and salvation
-that Jesus effected atonement ‘at-one-ment’]

are understood, as Christian beliefs. And there they remain,
as God’s chosen people remain God’s chosen people.
As the covenant made - is the covenant, still - with no new
convenant having been made, no original sin, no need for
being saved from same [redemption, salvation, justification
atonement]

hence, no need for a savior, in the Christian defintion of same.
Mercy, forgiveness, a green pasture, salvation - all are to be
found, in the Hebrew scriptures.

One does not look for that which is already found and granted. http://bestsmileys.com/waving/5.gif

Just my thought, spauline, reflecting on the theory offered.

reen

I’m not doing this attack the Jews. I see the Jews on the verge of what is in the prodigal son. Beginning with Protestantism, the younger son told the Father to take a hike. He has currently almost squandered his inheritance. The famine is imminent. When he comes back, that is, when the Gentiles have passed through a chastisement that parellels the Babylonian Exile, and have repented and returned to their Promised Land, the Catholic Church, and there is great rejoicing in the house, the elder son will refuse to enter.

He will be like, this is not fair. But what the elder son does not understand, is, he did the very same thing in his youth, and he is failing to see that the younger son is only following the fallen nature as he did. The only difference is that the elder son did it relative to the Old, Prefiguring Covenant, whereas the younger son does it relative to the New, Fulfilling Covenant.

But does the Father condemn the elder son? No! He responds in compassion, “Son, everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate, for this son of yours was lost and is found, was dead, and is alive.”

Therefore, I think that the Catholic Church, in its modern relation with the Jews, does not consider them fully culpable for their persistence in the inability to accept the Messiah that came to them. IOW, God sympathizes with the Jews, and hence, has not abandoned them.

In fact, of all Peoples, the Jews are the most blessed, for it is they alone that shall embrace the Messiah as a near whole nation when He comes at the end of history, for at that the time, the eyes of the younger son shall close forever to the fullness, hence warranting the end of the world. For the Jews only rejected PART of the New Covenant, for the New includes the Old. But the Gentiles, in the time of the end, shall be throwing the totality of God’s truth and love back in His face, and in a manner in which they shall have no excuse. Therefore, they will be incapable of repentance, in a general sense.

So then, those who are last to receive ANY Revelation from God, are the FIRST to receive it in FULL, and are also the FIRST to reject it in full, just as those who were FIRST in receiving ANY Revelation from God are the LAST to receive it in full, but they are also they who embrace shall embrace the fullness and remain in it until the end of history.

And so, as the Apostle writes, if the Jewish rejection of the NT Cov has meant the reconciliation of the Gentiles to God, what shall the Jews’ acceptance mean except “resurrection from the dead.”

But alas, the Jews remain, because of the fallen nature, just like St. Thomas. Only when they have seen it all, ALL the stages fulfilled, shall they believe, just as St. Thomas said, “Only after I place my hand in his side and my fingers in His wounds, shall I believe.”
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There is a little misinterpretation here, on the dark nights as described by St. John of the Cross.
the first stage, the purgative, is the dark night of the senses, the pain of doing penance to beat out of your flesh the primary sinful tendencies.
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The pain is not in the penances per se, but rather, the detachment from things of the appetite, that prevent us from growing closser to God. The pain is one of sacrificing one’s own desire, for love of God. Giving up sinful pleasures in itself, is the pain. The penances that one does, is the means of helping to detach from them.
The second stage, the illumination, begins in light, the saint progressively growing in the love of God. But it grows darker in pain in the soul, for the deeper the saint fathoms the Divine Mysteries, the more cold and sinful is the world. So the illuminative culminates in the dark night of the soul.
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The pain is the wound of love caused in the soul when Christ first touched it. This pain is a pain of love, where the soul, hungers for Christ alone and nothing or no one else can satisfy it. The sins of the world have no bearing on the soul, for the soul is detached from the world and focused totally on the beloved, Jesus Christ.
In the third stage, the unitive, the saint emerges from the dark night of the soul vindicated, the revelation of God shown to be true, even though the world had called it a lie in the dark night. And in the unitive, the saint finally walks with God perfectly in His Will, fully prepared to do whatever God wants Him to.
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The spiritual union, or as St. John calls it, the spiritual marriage, is the perfection of love between God and the soul. Here, the soul’s will is aligned with the will of God, through love, and just as a lover takes on the characteristics of the beloved, so the soul takes on the characteristics of God, who is love.
At the end of the unitive, the saint then enters the will of God fully by following his Savior unto death, into the Passion that is martyrdom, the total abandonment into the hands of God.
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There is no end to the unitive, it is only deepened as the soul is brought into the beatific vision of God.

“God can not be grasped, except through Love.”

Only in this context can true conversion be accomplished. Anything less is merely conversion to a religion.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
There is a little misinterpretation here, on the dark nights as described by St. John of the Cross.

The pain is not in the penances per se, but rather, the detachment from things of the appetite, that prevent us from growing closser to God. The pain is one of sacrificing one’s own desire, for love of God. Giving up sinful pleasures in itself, is the pain. The penances that one does, is the means of helping to detach from them.

The pain is the wound of love caused in the soul when Christ first touched it. This pain is a pain of love, where the soul, hungers for Christ alone and nothing or no one else can satisfy it. The sins of the world have no bearing on the soul, for the soul is detached from the world and focused totally on the beloved, Jesus Christ.

The spiritual union, or as St. John calls it, the spiritual marriage, is the perfection of love between God and the soul. Here, the soul’s will is aligned with the will of God, through love, and just as a lover takes on the characteristics of the beloved, so the soul takes on the characteristics of God, who is love.

There is no end to the unitive, it is only deepened as the soul is brought into the beatific vision of God.

“God can not be grasped, except through Love.”

Only in this context can true conversion be accomplished. Anything less is merely conversion to a religion.

Jim
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I appreciate the clarifications, maybe just one clarification, I realize the unitive phase in this life gives way to the eternal unitive in heaven. In which case, I meant, “the final stage of the unitive way IN THIS LIFE is martyrdom.”

But I would still say there is a connection between the principles that are valid. Could we not equally apply what you have written to the stages of the Church and of Jews, in a figurative sense.

Are you therefore rejecting the totality of the analogy?
 
when the Little Flower was in her dark night, did it not seem that all her faith was a lie? And therefore, what is wrong with saying that the Church is now in a dark night, living in a world that considers its faith dead and useless, much like the inhabitants in the earth who, in the Apocalypse 11, send gifts to one another to celebrate the death of the Witnesses of the Truths of God, and scoff at the Revelation of God.

was it not the same for the prophets just prior to the exile, when they stood amidst a people that regarded them as fools, and irrelevant and mocked them?
 
spauline said:
I meant, "the final stage of the unitive way IN THIS LIFE is martyrdom."
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. . . Just following up on some of the comments/concerns of JimR-OCDS on the interpretation of St. John of the Cross

What do you mean by this statement?

Thanks.
Dave 🙂

PS. The trial of faith you mention of St. Therese is not the night of spirit described in such detail by St. John of the Cross. The saint had already entered the unitive way prior to this final trial so she had no remaining selfish clingings to be purged. This final purging is the purpose, if you will, of St. John’s teaching on the night of spirit. It is purgatory lived out while here on earth.

What she endured was the reparative night of spirit (Fr. Garrigou-LaGrange) - a type of intense suffering endured by the already perfected soul not for it’s own purification . . . but for the sake of souls. This type of night is exceeding rare and, properly understood, is the type of night that is now associated with Mother Teresa.

Perhaps this is what you mean by the unitive way ending in martyrdom?
 
BTW, have you read Richard of St. Victor? It’s been a very long time but I seem to recall he related contemplative stages to the various books of the Old Testament . . . “The Twelve Patriarchs” and “Mystical Ark,” I believe.

Dave.
 
DBT said:
. . . Just following up on some of the comments/concerns of JimR-OCDS on the interpretation of St. John of the Cross

What do you mean by this statement?

Thanks.
Dave 🙂

PS. The trial of faith you mention of St. Therese is not the night of spirit described in such detail by St. John of the Cross. The saint had already entered the unitive way prior to this final trial so she had no remaining selfish clingings to be purged. This final purging is the purpose, if you will, of St. John’s teaching on the night of spirit. It is purgatory lived out while here on earth.

What she endured was the reparative night of spirit (Fr. Garrigou-LaGrange) - a type of intense suffering endured by the already perfected soul not for it’s own purification . . . but for the sake of souls. This type of night is exceeding rare and, properly understood, is the type of night that is now associated with Mother Teresa.

Perhaps this is what you mean by the unitive way ending in martyrdom?
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well, i guess I meant either literal martyrdom or the martyrdom of the bed, which the little flower endured in addition to the night for souls.

I apologize, I am operating from a primitive understanding of the way of the saint, based on broad basic information.

but i would still think there is something to be said for these three greater darknesses that are partitioned by lights.

what do you think?
 
spauline said:
but i would still think there is something to be said for these three greater darknesses that are partitioned by lights.

what do you think?
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To be honest, I’m not really grasping what you’re trying to say. As a Secular Carmelite I’ve been focusing more on your treatment of St. John . . . so I’m probably missing the “big picture” you’re trying to present.

I do know, however, that there are all sorts of mystical intrepretations that have been applied over the ages to the books of the old testament . . . Richard of St. Victor being one of many. And there are various “levels” of meaning as well. For example, the Song of Songs can be viewed as the Church’s relationship with Christ as well as the individual souls union with Christ. And in just the last few days or so I read a passage (for the life of me I can’t remember where) describing how the unitive way can be likened to the soul’s exodus from Egypt to enter the desert and tasting the manna from heaven.

So what I think you’re attempting is not unheard of. It’s just that if the teaching of St. John is off the mark a bit, does not the analogy fall apart? I don’t know. But that’s where I’m at . . . since you asked 🙂

Sorry, just some thoughts. I don’t want to sidetrack your presentation. Perhaps things will become clearer to me as you continue to post. 🙂

Dave.
 
DBT said:
To be honest, I’m not really grasping what you’re trying to say. As a Secular Carmelite I’ve been focusing more on your treatment of St. John . . . so I’m probably missing the “big picture” you’re trying to present.

I do know, however, that there are all sorts of mystical intrepretations that have been applied over the ages to the books of the old testament . . . Richard of St. Victor being one of many. And there are various “levels” of meaning as well. For example, the Song of Songs can be viewed as the Church’s relationship with Christ as well as the individual souls union with Christ. And in just the last few days or so I read a passage (for the life of me I can’t remember where) describing how the unitive way can be likened to the soul’s exodus from Egypt to enter the desert and tasting the manna from heaven.

So what I think you’re attempting is not unheard of. It’s just that if the teaching of St. John is off the mark a bit, does not the analogy fall apart? I don’t know. But that’s where I’m at . . . since you asked 🙂

Sorry, just some thoughts. I don’t want to sidetrack your presentation. Perhaps things will become clearer to me as you continue to post. 🙂

Dave.
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well, I think i could modify my presentation to what St. John says. after all there are three great ages delineated by Augustine for the Jews and there are three great ages of the Church if the general mystic scenario of an intermediate apostasy that is healed are true.
 
I guess I’m failing to see the connection to the Jews in all this.

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to convey.

Jim
 
Spauline:

I just wanted to say that I think you have a great mind!!! I followed this link from the “Back Fence” thread on the “End Times” and I just want to encourage you. I think a lot of what you’ve said is brilliant, especially here. Thanks.
 
Ed_Rand said:
Spauline:

I just wanted to say that I think you have a great mind!!! I followed this link from the “Back Fence” thread on the “End Times” and I just want to encourage you. I think a lot of what you’ve said is brilliant, especially here. Thanks.
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Thank you, Ed, for the compliments. I pray God bless you!

In Her Love,
Scott
🙂
 
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