Y
Youngone88
Guest
Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could help me better frame response to my former pastor (Calvinist). On facebook, I believe he misrepresented Catholicism, I responded, and he responded back. The debate is not about scripture, so much as whether the Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace or not. Here are his statements with my responses. His are in bold, mine are plain. i had to shorten it alot, and cut out stuff, to fit it in one post.
**Felix- your summary of my brief reply as a “huge misunderstanding” is also “a huge misunderstanding of the RCC view. I am saying that after reading the whole session on Justification the RCC does in fact teach that “the Catholic does everything on his own in order to earn salvation through his own abilities.” **
I don’t see any section in the Council of Trent that says what you said above.
**It is these doctrines that they turn to show that they believe in God’s grace but as you continue to read on they will begin to add that faith is equal to the sacraments that begin with baptism. **
Since we believe that both faith and the sacraments are gracious gifts from God, I don’t agree that they contradict God’s grace.
**Felix- I don’t know how you are reading Trent but in order to understand what they are saying you must begin with the beginning and read it through to the end. This portion of Trent that you read is but the first canon of many. **
I was merely citing canon 1 as an example. I, along with plenty of Catholics much more educated than I am, believe that the council teaches salvation by grace, and not salvation by our own works.
**
What do you do with the rest that begins to assert that the sacraments are necessary to keep the infused grace that is given at baptism? **
The Sacraments are pure grace. If the Sacraments are necessary to maintain grace, it is only because we need God’s grace to remain in Him. God leads us to them by His grace.
**
What messes everything up is later doctrines about purgatory and the sacraments that attempt to usurp and undermine such beautiful doctrines of Grace. The RCC believes that this grace is infused in the individual by means of baptism then by means of the sacraments is preserved.**
purgatory and the sacraments are applications of Jesus’ work on the cross, not our own unaided works.
**Felix- The RCC system gives lip service to salvation by grace. By trying to qualify your statement “but Jesus is the source” you are speaking through both sides of your mouth. **
No, I’m not. God gives Grace through various means without contradicting Christ’s unique role as mediator. My water faucet is, in one sense, my source of water, but it is not THE source of the water.
Can you live as children of God and not live a pure life?
Not if you’re living consistently, no.
**this does not need the sacraments in order to retain grace. **
We need God’s grace to retain grace.
**the RCC-says one thing true then mess it all up by adding tradition. “We confess, God freely forgives us” (you should have stopped there) but you added “through the priest” – do you mean that the priests declares absolution that is FROM God? Or is it necessary that the priest hears the confession then he declares that you have been absolved, which he declares? **
The priest hears the confession first, and then God forgives us through the priest. It comes from God. The priest declares it, but God gives the grace.
Second, “then we go do what the priest tells us” what exactly does he tell us that we need to do in order to be put back on track “by Christ”? Where in Scriptures do you find clear teaching on this?
Pastors give advice to their flock all the time. If someone from your church said he stole $1,000, you would likely encourage him, remind him of God’s forgiveness, and (I would hope) tell him that he should return the $1,000. Sometimes the priest tells us to spend some time in prayer or to read scripture.
**The statement that is “totally sanctified by God” is true but purgatory is a contradiction of this. **
No, it is the completion.
**First, on earth mass and prayers must be done for the one in purgatory (which by the way they do not even know whether he went directly to heaven, he is in purgatory or in damnation). Second, the individual is experiencing a degree of pain in this STATE of being. The only other place that I could think of in Scripture of such place is Hades (Luke 16). And no it is not Abraham’s bosom. **
This is about whether Catholic doctrine is compatible with Scripture, which is not the main point of this post. Besides, Catholics don’t believe that the Scriptures are the only infallible rule of faith, nor do we believe that everything must be explicit in Scripture.
Nothing unclean will enter heaven that is why Christ had to die on the cross, to cleanse the sins of all those God has chosen.
Agreed, but they are sanctified before they enter heaven as well. Surely you don’t think that either of us, as we are right now, are so sanctified that we could just walk into heaven right now, without any internal change?
** you’ve got to keep reading and you will find out just how much of that they maintain or explain away [grace in the council of trent] in order to sustain the doctrine of the sacraments and baptism.**
I did keep reading [the council of trent], and I see nothing like what you say.
Felix – the fact that you only pointed to the wrapping of the doctrine of Grace without pointing how this works out with the rest a person is justified or keeps his justification in the RCC system, I believe you have misrepresented the RCC and thus may mislead someone. your explanation of the whole as “intricate,” “complicated” for the rest of the system does not qualify as an explanation.
It’s facebook. I’m not about to do a full length explanation of salvation.
It seems that your main argument is that belief in the sacraments contradicts belief in God’s grace, or maybe that allowing any amount of human cooperation contradicts Grace as the cause (let me know if I misunderstood). I disagree, and argue that God’s grace is constantly shown as the cause and sustainer in Catholic teaching…
I
**Felix- your summary of my brief reply as a “huge misunderstanding” is also “a huge misunderstanding of the RCC view. I am saying that after reading the whole session on Justification the RCC does in fact teach that “the Catholic does everything on his own in order to earn salvation through his own abilities.” **
I don’t see any section in the Council of Trent that says what you said above.
**It is these doctrines that they turn to show that they believe in God’s grace but as you continue to read on they will begin to add that faith is equal to the sacraments that begin with baptism. **
Since we believe that both faith and the sacraments are gracious gifts from God, I don’t agree that they contradict God’s grace.
**Felix- I don’t know how you are reading Trent but in order to understand what they are saying you must begin with the beginning and read it through to the end. This portion of Trent that you read is but the first canon of many. **
I was merely citing canon 1 as an example. I, along with plenty of Catholics much more educated than I am, believe that the council teaches salvation by grace, and not salvation by our own works.
**
What do you do with the rest that begins to assert that the sacraments are necessary to keep the infused grace that is given at baptism? **
The Sacraments are pure grace. If the Sacraments are necessary to maintain grace, it is only because we need God’s grace to remain in Him. God leads us to them by His grace.
**
What messes everything up is later doctrines about purgatory and the sacraments that attempt to usurp and undermine such beautiful doctrines of Grace. The RCC believes that this grace is infused in the individual by means of baptism then by means of the sacraments is preserved.**
purgatory and the sacraments are applications of Jesus’ work on the cross, not our own unaided works.
**Felix- The RCC system gives lip service to salvation by grace. By trying to qualify your statement “but Jesus is the source” you are speaking through both sides of your mouth. **
No, I’m not. God gives Grace through various means without contradicting Christ’s unique role as mediator. My water faucet is, in one sense, my source of water, but it is not THE source of the water.
Can you live as children of God and not live a pure life?
Not if you’re living consistently, no.
**this does not need the sacraments in order to retain grace. **
We need God’s grace to retain grace.
**the RCC-says one thing true then mess it all up by adding tradition. “We confess, God freely forgives us” (you should have stopped there) but you added “through the priest” – do you mean that the priests declares absolution that is FROM God? Or is it necessary that the priest hears the confession then he declares that you have been absolved, which he declares? **
The priest hears the confession first, and then God forgives us through the priest. It comes from God. The priest declares it, but God gives the grace.
Second, “then we go do what the priest tells us” what exactly does he tell us that we need to do in order to be put back on track “by Christ”? Where in Scriptures do you find clear teaching on this?
Pastors give advice to their flock all the time. If someone from your church said he stole $1,000, you would likely encourage him, remind him of God’s forgiveness, and (I would hope) tell him that he should return the $1,000. Sometimes the priest tells us to spend some time in prayer or to read scripture.
**The statement that is “totally sanctified by God” is true but purgatory is a contradiction of this. **
No, it is the completion.
**First, on earth mass and prayers must be done for the one in purgatory (which by the way they do not even know whether he went directly to heaven, he is in purgatory or in damnation). Second, the individual is experiencing a degree of pain in this STATE of being. The only other place that I could think of in Scripture of such place is Hades (Luke 16). And no it is not Abraham’s bosom. **
This is about whether Catholic doctrine is compatible with Scripture, which is not the main point of this post. Besides, Catholics don’t believe that the Scriptures are the only infallible rule of faith, nor do we believe that everything must be explicit in Scripture.
Nothing unclean will enter heaven that is why Christ had to die on the cross, to cleanse the sins of all those God has chosen.
Agreed, but they are sanctified before they enter heaven as well. Surely you don’t think that either of us, as we are right now, are so sanctified that we could just walk into heaven right now, without any internal change?
** you’ve got to keep reading and you will find out just how much of that they maintain or explain away [grace in the council of trent] in order to sustain the doctrine of the sacraments and baptism.**
I did keep reading [the council of trent], and I see nothing like what you say.
Felix – the fact that you only pointed to the wrapping of the doctrine of Grace without pointing how this works out with the rest a person is justified or keeps his justification in the RCC system, I believe you have misrepresented the RCC and thus may mislead someone. your explanation of the whole as “intricate,” “complicated” for the rest of the system does not qualify as an explanation.
It’s facebook. I’m not about to do a full length explanation of salvation.
It seems that your main argument is that belief in the sacraments contradicts belief in God’s grace, or maybe that allowing any amount of human cooperation contradicts Grace as the cause (let me know if I misunderstood). I disagree, and argue that God’s grace is constantly shown as the cause and sustainer in Catholic teaching…
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