The cross

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Tamsulosin

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How do you answer to a person of other christian denomination whose church has the cross without the body of Christ hanging from it"because what it makes it supernatural is that he resurrected not hat he was hanged.Other humans were hanged too"He is no longer on the cross"
Not the exact words, but close.What do I say to him?
Tam.
 
Tamsulosin said:
How do you answer to a person of other christian denomination whose church has the cross without the body of Christ hanging from it"because what it makes it supernatural is that he resurrected not hat he was hanged.Other humans were hanged too"He is no longer on the cross"
Not the exact words, but close.What do I say to him?
Tam.
Click to expand...
Without the crucifixion, you wouldn’t have a resurrection. I don’t think having a crucifix is a denial of the resurrection. You could simply point out in the phone book the tons of catholic churches with the name resurrection in them I guess. 🤷
Seems like a silly thing for your friend to challenge you on.
 
Tamsulosin said:
How do you answer to a person of other christian denomination whose church has the cross without the body of Christ hanging from it"because what it makes it supernatural is that he resurrected not hat he was hanged.Other humans were hanged too"He is no longer on the cross"
Not the exact words, but close.What do I say to him?
Tam.
Click to expand...
Greetings Tam,

First off, lets look at 1 Corinthians 1:23, St. Paul writes, " . . . but we proclaim Christ crucified . . . " It is through “Christ crucified” that the chains of sin and death are destroyed.

St. Paul again speaks of Christ crucified in his first letter to the the Corinthians, this time chapter 2 verse 2, “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”

The Crucifix reminds us of the suffering that Jesus endured and His death. With out Christ of the Cross we have no Resurrected Christ.

Check out Bible Christian Society for more info on why Catholics have Crucifixes under the 2-minute apologetics tab.

God bless,
ZP
 
If you put up a cross but not a crucifix and justify it by saying "“He is no longer on the cross” then why do you have a cross at all? The cross is no longer up either.

Part of me just wants to commend them for using iconography of sorts. :o
 
MarcoPolo said:
If you put up a cross but not a crucifix and justify it by saying "“He is no longer on the cross” then why do you have a cross at all? The cross is no longer up either.

Part of me just wants to commend them for using iconography of sorts. :o
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Guess that’s the only “icon” we have…We know through the scriptures what went on…I guess we see Him resurrected and at the right hand of the Father interceding for us…It really doesn’t matter to me either way…The Holy Spirit uses His word to change me from the inside out…I guess I don’t rely much on pictures or statues and it don’t bother me if others do…It’s all about Jesus and our committing our lives to Him…It’s about getting His word in our hearts so we don’t sin…It’s about maturing in the faith and the Holy Spirit that uses what we have to change us…peace to you…The
 
StrawberryJam said:
Without the crucifixion, you wouldn’t have a resurrection. I don’t think having a crucifix is a denial of the resurrection. You could simply point out in the phone book the tons of catholic churches with the name resurrection in them I guess. 🤷
Seems like a silly thing for your friend to challenge you on.
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Apparently it is not his opinion rather the Baptist Church’s, justifying the use of a simple
empty cross rather than our crucifix in the Catholic Churches.
Tam
 
Tamsulosin said:
Apparently it is not his opinion rather the Baptist Church’s, justifying the use of a simple
empty cross rather than our crucifix in the Catholic Churches.
Tam
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Can’t he question their position and demand to know why they insist on this being the only “acceptable” way they can display a cross? Good heavens, I can’t believe they are so dogmatic about this.
 
Tamsulosin said:
Apparently it is not his opinion rather the Baptist Church’s, justifying the use of a simple
empty cross rather than our crucifix in the Catholic Churches.
Tam
Click to expand...
Jesus Christ died once and for all time on the cross. It’s poor theology to presume that His Sacrifice does not extend into eternity for all the sins of mankind, otherwise His final Sacrifice would not have been sufficient. It is a crucial duality as well: Christ DIED to pay for our sins, and in so doing destroyed our death. By rising again He restored us to new life (which is actually the reason part of the Host is dropped into the chalice at mass… to show that it is a LIVING sacrifice because the Jewish believed that a sacrifice of a dead animal involved separating the blood from the body… our Body and Blood are united in the mass).

In other words, to focus on either Christ’s death or His resurrection to the exclusion of one or the other is a shallow and ineffective form of worship. Christ came to die so that He could rise again.
 
Tamsulosin said:
How do you answer to a person of other christian denomination whose church has the cross without the body of Christ hanging from it"because what it makes it supernatural is that he resurrected not hat he was hanged.Other humans were hanged too"He is no longer on the cross"
Not the exact words, but close.What do I say to him?
Tam.
Click to expand...
I’ve always found this to be a silly argument. Those other humans who were “hanged” were also taken off their crosses, so why doesn’t an empty cross represent them? For that matter, why doesn’t his church use an empty tomb as a symbol?

“We preach Christ crucified”. Paul said it, we believe it, what’s the problem?

Going a little deeper, what is remarkable is not that God, who can do anything, can resurrect himself. That’s easy for God. What is remarkable, what should be the focus of our wonder and gratitude, is that God chose to become one of us and to suffer and die for us. That is the amazing thing, the thing that is “a stumbling block to Jews and a folly to Gentiles”. The world is not particularly amazed that any god could come back to life, but it should be amazed that God would unite himself so completely to our situation, would willingly suffer the consequences of our fallen state, in order to raise us up from that state, to offer us a way back home.
 
VociMike said:
I’ve always found this to be a silly argument. Those other humans who were “hanged” were also taken off their crosses, so why doesn’t an empty cross represent them? For that matter, why doesn’t his church use an empty tomb as a symbol?

“We preach Christ crucified”. Paul said it, we believe it, what’s the problem?

Going a little deeper, what is remarkable is not that God, who can do anything, can resurrect himself. That’s easy for God. What is remarkable, what should be the focus of our wonder and gratitude, is that God chose to become one of us and to suffer and die for us. That is the amazing thing, the thing that is “a stumbling block to Jews and a folly to Gentiles”. The world is not particularly amazed that any god could come back to life, but it should be amazed that God would unite himself so completely to our situation, would willingly suffer the consequences of our fallen state, in order to raise us up from that state, to offer us a way back home.
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Beautifully said.
Thanks to all for the ideas I can use to explain the catholic point of view.
 
Tamsulosin said:
How do you answer to a person of other christian denomination whose church has the cross without the body of Christ hanging from it"because what it makes it supernatural is that he resurrected not hat he was hanged.Other humans were hanged too"He is no longer on the cross"
Not the exact words, but close.What do I say to him?
Tam.
Click to expand...
To answer this, one must be able to answer the most difficult questions in theology.

Did Christ HAVE TO suffer and die to save us?

Yes.

Why?

Here’s the answer…

God, in some elemental way, is an altruistic lover of other.

There’s no deeper analysis.

He simply is.

God is SUCH a lover that He is overflowing with love.

So, He desired to create us, to form a love relationship with us, where we would love Him, and He would love us.

But, as in all other cases, the “devil is in the details.”

In addition to being almighty, God is all-sovereign, and He is all-just.

God’s complete sovereignty, in-and-of God, makes it “against God-ness” for God to create an equal, in any sense of the word.

So, when He created us, we did not have WITHIN OURSELVES, WITHIN OUR OWN FLESH, the kind of perferction that God is.

Instead, we are each of us made up of 6,000,000,000,000 cells, each of which screams, “When do we eat???!!!”

Because God is disabled by His Own sovereignty from creating things that are perfect like Him in any respect, we are, as created, self-seeking “Sin Machines.” All our flesh does is cry out to our wills, “SIN!”

As such, we are inately unworthy of Heaven, and unworthy of a love relationship with God.

God, in His infinite wisdom, knew the solutrion to the problem in advance: Grace.

But all-just God is disabled by His Own perfect justice from just giving us grace. In effect, the perfect justice of God answers, “NO! NO FREEBIES FOR THESE SIN MACHINE HUMANS! THERE ARE NO PENNIES FROM HEAVEN! THAT’S UNNNNNNNN-JUST!”

The God of Love’s loving Son responds to the problem by saying, “I’ll do it! I volunteer to suffer and die to pay the price exacted by Our Own perfect justice!”

The Father answers, “I accept your offer, and so I offer you to suffer and die.”

That’s why Christ HAD to die.

Icons displaying horribly tortured Christ hanging on the cross remind us of Christ’s loving payment of our required ransom.

Empty crosses don’t do it as well.
 
I own a crucifix because:
  1. As an outward sign to others that I belong to Christ. I proudly wear the mark of Christ, for I am not ashamed.
  2. As a daily reminder of what my sin did to Christ and the great love that God has for me. It reminds me to pray several times a day for God’s grace to daily live the Mass and to follow in God’s holiness.
 
Regarding the post 11 implication that humans are sin machines made up of hungry, screaming 6,000,000,000,000 cells - - - - -

That dog don’t hunt.

For the best information about Catholic teaching, use this link.
 
Tamsulosin said:
How do you answer to a person of other christian denomination whose church has the cross without the body of Christ hanging from it"because what it makes it supernatural is that he resurrected not hat he was hanged.Other humans were hanged too"He is no longer on the cross"
Not the exact words, but close.What do I say to him?
Tam.
Click to expand...
The cross did not save us, or obtain forgiveness for our sins. Christ suffering and dying on the cross did!
 
grannymh said:
Regarding the post 11 implication that humans are sin machines made up of hungry, screaming 6,000,000,000,000 cells - - - - -

That dog don’t hunt.

For the best information about Catholic teaching, use this link.
Click to expand...
Hi, Granny.

People are sin machines. This is the down-to-earth version of the doctrine that humans suffer from “concupisence.” The condition is so consummate that the Church nastily condemned the Pelagian heresy which asserted that grace was not necessary for salvation.

It is necessary for salvation, because without it we are concupiscent “sin machines.”

Peter
 
Peter_Dawson said:
Hi, Granny.

People are sin machines. This is the down-to-earth version of the doctrine that humans suffer from “concupisence.” The condition is so consummate that the Church nastily condemned the Pelagian heresy which asserted that grace was not necessary for salvation.

It is necessary for salvation, because without it we are concupiscent “sin machines.”

Peter
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It is up to you to call your family whatever you want.
 
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