The Crusifixion: predestination and free will

[Thing]

He didn’t exactly give his own life now did he…he’s an immortal God…was all for show, as he willed himself back to life three days later.

We are all immortal. We all have lives. We all will die. He allowed himself to be tortured to death. He gave his life. His body became dead. What more do you want?

 

[Thing]

What do you mean, “stay His hand”? If God is not in control, then what is? …

Yes He is in control of everything. But why do you think being in control of everything means controlling everything?

 

[tonyrey]

I agree that foreknowledge does not imply control. However, foreknowledge on the part of an omnipotent creator of the universe does imply control of that universe, as I have explained previously in this thread. Please note that I distinguish between control and coercion.

You have neglected the possibility the Creator chooses to delegate power and freedom so that the universe is not entirely under His control.

 

[tonyrey]

Exactly…God would have had access to an infinite number of earths / universe situations which he could choose to create…yet he chose to create a specific universe and a specific earth which is apparently a broken and sin filled world…instead of a harmonious world that was not in need of saving.

A harmonious world without freedom is only preferred by those who enjoy being slaves!

God also chose to create Lucifer, knowing full well that Lucifer would rebel against him and thus necessitating Gods creation of Hell.

False. Hell is not created by God but self-inflicted by those who reject Him.

 

[hatsoff]

You have neglected the possibility the Creator chooses to delegate power and freedom so that the universe is not entirely under His control.

Remember my coffee brewing example? As long as God delegates power to agents of his deliberate creation, then, if he is omnipotent and omniscient, he is still in control, only in part through those created agents.

 

[tonyrey]

Remember my coffee brewing example? As long as God delegates power to agents of his deliberate creation, then, if he is omnipotent and omniscient, he is still in control, only in part through those created agents.

Not necessarily. Being omnipotent He can (and does) choose to delegate power forever and ever…

 

[tonyrey]

Remember my coffee brewing example? As long as God delegates power to agents of his deliberate creation, then, if he is omnipotent and omniscient, he is still in control, only in part through those created agents.

Not necessarily. Being omnipotent He can (and does) choose to delegate power forever, knowing that our freedom is more important than anything else…

 

[hatsoff]

Not necessarily. Being omnipotent He can (and does) choose to delegate power forever, knowing that our freedom is more important than anything else…

Sure, but this does not divest God of his own power and control, as long as the objects of his delegation are themselves part of his creation.

Allow me to reproduce my previous post on this:

If God is not in control, then what is? I suspect some might want to say that God is in control excepting only where he gives us some measure of control. However, since God is in control of us, then our control is a means through which God controls.

To illustrate what I mean, consider the following mundane example: Suppose that I freely decide to brew a pot of coffee this morning. Now, if God deliberately created me, and if he is omniscient, then he created me knowing that I would decide to brew that pot of coffee on this pleasant Sunday morning. So, God performed a deliberate action which he knew would lead to a particular decision on my part. In that sense, he is in control of my decision.

If we wish to deny that kind of control, then we have to either say that God did not create us deliberately, or else God is not omniscient in that way.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. But what if he found no one who was willing to kill him?

perhaps divine Providence guided the events of the time, so that Jesus could show us his love by dying on the cross, but that begs the question, did the accusers, Pilate, and those who crucified Christ, have any choice in the matter?

If we have true libertarian free will, I feel it must have been possible for those pounding the nails on the cross, to have changed their minds and let Jesus go free.

But how then would Jesus’s prophecies he made about having to die and be raised up, be fulfilled then? he had to be killed, it was predetermined that he should die for our sins.

Well let’s say God knew how they would freely choose. ok So imagine this situation. God wants to save mankind by sending his son to die for our sins, but he can’t forsee anyone who will willingly kill the son of God, what is God to do? This situation must be possible if every human has libertarian free will. It might have been the case that Jesus had no one to crucify him.

How is the neccesity of the crucifixion reconciled with true libertarian free will, and moral responsibility??

just precisely what is the Catholic teaching on Providence and Predestination??

I believe predestination and free will operate together. Chirst ***chose *** the disciples; they didn’t choose him as he himself said. There would have been any number of fishermen on the shores of Galiliee plying their trade, yet the only ones we remember are those Christ chose. The rest, from the purely historical point of view, have disappeared into limbo. We don’t know a thing about them who they were, their names or anything else.

Frankly, unless there is some predestination, God could not have a plan. Without any predestination, one may as well try to build a building by tossing a dice every time it came to any decision as to how you’d construct it.

The disciples had a choice to respond, but without Christ’s predetermined choice of 12 particular individuals, their response would not have meant anything.

I’ve said before the night my father died, he appeared in my room. Amongst the things he said, and which I still find hard to come to grips with, was the statement, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” Later however, he stated equally, “I was willing” (to act in such a cruel, stupid fashion for 20 years).

I argued the toss and said “That can’t be right!” He replied, “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here”.

As a follow-up to that incident, a couple of years ago, I was arguing with atheists on a Google site about NDE’s (Near Death Experiences), and getting nowhere. To cut a long story short, I prayed that I would meet someone who’d had an NDE. Just two or three days later, I picked up in the Maxi Taxi I was driving a bloke who’d not only had an NDE, but even went to the same high school as the eldest son of the very same uncle who came to tell me my father had died.

It wasn’t coiincidence.

Now it’s one thing if God can merely foresee the future and all the choices we’ll make, which makes our lives predestined from His point of view. But in that case He has not acted in any form.

But when a prayer is so swiftly answered, ***despite ***all the free will choices of customers who led me to the postion where the particular NDE customer was realistically available, where the radio operator had “free will” about the glitch which preserved the job for a Maxi when it should have gone to a local cab; when the NDE passenger needs a cab due to a predetermined booking for a hospital check up; when I chose to either accept or reject the job and it remained on the screen for several minutes while I procrastined, then what w’eve got is a God who can very, very subtly maneouvre situations to bring about His ends, despite our free wills.

I have no idea how He does it, but He does. And our choices generally are responses to situations which already exist. We don’t make choices in a vacuum.

Predestination and free will exist together. God has a** PLAN**.

 

[tonyrey]

hatsoff;6669198:

Being omnipotent He can (and does) choose to delegate power forever, knowing that our freedom is more important than anything else…
Sure, but this does not divest God of his own power and control, as long as the objects of his delegation are themselves part of his creation.

If God is not in control, then what is? I suspect some might want to say that God is in control excepting only where he gives us some measure of control. However, since God is in control of us, then our control is a means through which God controls.
“controls” is ambiguous here. He shares His power with us but we decide what to do with that power. He is ultimately responsible for what we do but we are directly responsible - which makes all the difference.

To illustrate what I mean, consider the following mundane example: Suppose that I freely decide to brew a pot of coffee this morning. Now, if God deliberately created me, and if he is omniscient, then he created me knowing that I would decide to brew that pot of coffee on this pleasant Sunday morning. So, God performed a deliberate action which he knew would lead to a particular decision on my part. In that sense, he is in control of my decision.

He is not the Author of your decision but of your power of decision-making. He chooses to share His power with us so that we have free will.

If we wish to deny that kind of control, then we have to either say that God did not create us deliberately, or else God is not omniscient in that way.

I don’t see why. We can generally predict what people will do but that doesn’t deprive them of their freedom of choice.

 

[hatsoff]

“controls” is ambiguous here. He shares His power with us but we decide what to do with that power. He is ultimately responsible for what we do but we are directly responsible - which makes all the difference.

He is not the Author of your decision but of your power of decision-making. He chooses to share His power with us so that we have free will.

I don’t see why. We can generally predict what people will do but that doesn’t deprive them of their freedom of choice.

I realize that a term like “controls” is potentially misleading and/or ambiguous, which is why I provided the coffee brewing example to illustrate clearly what I mean. I’m not saying that there is always a discontinuity between our will and our action, as if God is “coercing” us. We make our own free decisions, to be sure. However, if God is omniscient and omnipotent, and deliberately created the universe, then our choices are all designed by God insofar as God deliberately created us knowing precisely what we do and do not choose. That is all I ever mean when I say that God “controls” our decisions.

Given that, what shall we say about God’s responsibility? You yourself seem to acknowledge that God is “ultimately responsible” for every decision we make. I would go on to say that this responsibility, understood as illustrated, is a necessary consequence of omniscience and omnipotence on the part of a deliberate creator of the universe.

 

[Thing]

Remember my coffee brewing example? As long as God delegates power to agents of his deliberate creation, then, if he is omnipotent and omniscient, he is still in control, only in part through those created agents.

Being all knowing and all powerful does not oblige Him to control anything. Every thing is held in existance by His will. What we *will *to do with those things is our own responsibility. I am free to post. Or. I am free not to post. I am free to post. Or. I am free not to post. See, He allows me to post or not to post, from moment to moment. Whether or not I will post is my own decision. I may post. Or. I may not post. I may post. Or. I may not post.

 

[tonyrey]

“controls” is ambiguous here. He shares His power with us but we decide what to do with that power. He is ultimately responsible for what we do but we are directly responsible - which makes all the difference.

I think it is more accurate to say that our choices are permitted by God because He has designed us so that we share His power to choose. What we choose is not designed.

Given that, what shall we say about God’s responsibility? You yourself seem to acknowledge that God is “ultimately responsible” for every decision we make. I would go on to say that this responsibility, understood as illustrated, is a necessary consequence of omniscience and omnipotence on the part of a deliberate creator of the universe.

That is true but we have to take into account that we are the ones who are directly responsible for the evil that we do. God permits this because it would be a greater evil not to give us the capacity for love - which implies freedom of choice. We act on this principle when we bring children into the world because we know they will almost certainly make some evil decisions but we accept that as the necessary price for the immense value of being a person.