The Culture Wars-Is this our concern as Christians?

[spiritblows]

I was reading this in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

**9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber – not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.” **

I’m wondering if we shouldn’t be more focused on tightening up our own ship, so to speak. From what I glean from these passages, we Christians are called to not concern ourselves with judging and rebuking the non-believer, but instead our concern should be with the Church, started by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Are we spending our energies in the wrong place by focusing on the World and it’s ills? And meanwhile, our Church is full of laxity and sin. From these passages, perhaps we need to reassess our priorities. We need to interact with the non-believer in order to live in the world, but it’s not our place to judge the sinful world, but we are to be very strong in our response if our brother or sister in Christ deviates from the right path.

 

[Magicsilence]

The problem is that there is too much of a feel good culture. In theory we should look out for each other, but we are condemned for judging others. So the line is thin. Where does pointing out a sin become a judgement? Personally, im not sure.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[tossolul]

We are called to be apostles and spread God’s word. we are not to judge others, but to say we should keep our concerns only to fellow Christians is a misinterpretation of God’s will for us.

It is how you go about doing this that is either right or wrong, not whether or not you should. You should always be willing to witness God’s love to others, but it needs to be done with charity at all times. And when it is impossible to be charitable…then hand it over to God through your prayers. That is my opinion of how we should spread God’s word.

 

[felra]

Evangelization is needed within and without the Church. How can we as Catholics be the light in the world unless we ourselves are first evangelized with the truth and conviction of the Gospel? Jesus also informed his first disciples as he warns us today that the world will hate us because the world does not accept the Son of God. As I have noted a fellow CA poster has repeated in his comments, we are meant to be a sign of contradiction in the world.

 

[maendem]

Wow, Spiritblows! I was just reading that chapter this week, and thinking the same thought. I think that if we are truly living as Christ has called us to live, we will perforce be sign of contradiction to the world, and an offensive one at that. Not much need to point fingers or to condemn. And yes, I think our own ship should be straightened up first (starting with ourselves as individuals).

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

There seems to be a tacit assumption that engagement in the “culture wars” means pointing fingers, judgementalism, and a number of other frowned-upon activities. I see no proof offered for that assumption, and it is not, on its face, valid.

We should, of course, keep our own house in order. What we must not do is let a shortcoming in that endeavour paralyze us into inactivity outside of the Catholic and Christian arena.

Think of a garden. It is all well and good – and indeed, necessary – to see to the well being of the plants. They must be watered, kept pest free,pruned, etc. Yet if one were to do all that, and let the soil in which they grow become depleted or damaged, the plants would still not do well, and could end up perishing.

The parable of the sower comes to mind. The seed that fell on all of the types of ground was the same seed. It did not flourish in all of its settings, none the less. We simply must be concerned with tending the ground – the culture.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[fix]

When the moral sense of people has, in effect, been blunted or sapped by a Godless sex-saturated media and by rebels against Catholic doctrinal and moral teachings who, moreover, occupy important posts in dioceses, the result is moral intimidation leading to the silencing of all too many Catholics. There is silence with respect to the most outrageous sacrilege, blasphemy, and sexual perversion which no longer receive public censure. There is no longer moral outrage that is proper to offenses committed against God and God’s law. The sayings of our divine Lord are even twisted and perverted in the interests of such moral intimidation…

The fear of rendering any more judgment regarding a sinful act (clearly condemned by Christ’s saving Gospel) can be truly inhibiting and paralyzing. It really means, of course, an abandonment of the intellect God gave us. It means sin does not matter. Either it does not exist or exists only to be excused by that oozing love and compassion typifying a “feel-good” religiosity. The holy Scriptures, interestingly, never speak this way on moral issues which, after all, involve salvation or damnation.

                          Unlike some modernistic priests, St. Paul speaks in clear and unequivocal                terms:

credo.stormloader.com/Morals/judgenot.htm

 

[spiritblows]

One thing I get from these passages is that our interaction with ‘The World’ should be only to do what is neccessary in order to live. It is the Church and it’s people that see should be trying to change to live correctly under God’s law. It seems to reccommend stronger tactics in enforcing good behaviour than are currently used.

The Amish seem to live out these principles well. Of course, they are in tightknit, small communities like the early Church. Do you call think that it’s just not practical to live up to these ideals in this day and age?

 

[spiritblows]

As far as the use of the word ‘judgement’ I think that our English word encompasses some different and various meanings of this word that are probably lost in the traslation. But, from this passage, I assume that judging means the things they recommend that one do when one’s brother goes astray, which are not to eat with him, not to associate with him, etc. And, Paul gives practical advise that of course we must associate with worldly people in order to exist. So, we can go our into the world and do business, but within the Church we are to hold one another to a much higher standard.

 

[tossolul]

spiritblows:

As far as the use of the word ‘judgement’ I think that our English word encompasses some different and various meanings of this word that are probably lost in the traslation. But, from this passage, I assume that judging means the things they recommend that one do when one’s brother goes astray, which are not to eat with him, not to associate with him, etc. And, Paul gives practical advise that of course we must associate with worldly people in order to exist. So, we can go our into the world and do business, but within the Church we are to hold one another to a much higher standard.

Are you saying that if you see a fellow brother who is lost, and not seeing God in obvious ways that you in fact should turn your back on him instead of helping in any charitable way possible to let Him see God?? simply because he is not ‘one of us’?

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

spiritblows:

One thing I get from these passages is that our interaction with ‘The World’ should be only to do what is neccessary in order to live. It is the Church and it’s people that see should be trying to change to live correctly under God’s law. It seems to reccommend stronger tactics in enforcing good behaviour than are currently used.

This is from the beginning of the 29th Chapter of the Book of the Prophet Jeremiah:

1: These are the words of the letter which Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the elders of the exiles, and to the priests, the prophets, and all the people, whom Nebuchadnez'zar had taken into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon.

2: This was after King Jeconi’ah, and the queen mother, the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the craftsmen, and the smiths had departed from Jerusalem.
3: The letter was sent by the hand of Ela’sah the son of Shaphan and Gemari’ah the son of Hilki’ah, whom Zedeki’ah king of Judah sent to Babylon to Nebuchadnez’zar king of Babylon. It said:
4: "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon:
5: Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce.
6: Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease.
7: **But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare. ** [emphasis added]

Seeking the welfare of the city is a far cry from only doing what is necessary to live. And that was direction given to God’s people who had been dragged off in captiviity to a foreign city. Christ came to fulfill, not to negate, the teachings of the Prophets. And Christ’s last instructions to his disciples, at the end of St. Matthew’s Gospel, began by telling them to “Go,” not turn inward.

spiritblows:

The Amish seem to live out these principles well. Of course, they are in tightknit, small communities like the early Church. Do you call think that it’s just not practical to live up to these ideals in this day and age?

I do not think that the Amish provide a source of example for people who are members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, from which their predecessors separated well before they came into being as a distinct sect. I question whether they are indeed “ideals,” and quite apart from whether or not they are practical, they do not accord with the message to God’s people found throughout Holy Scripture.

Now it is certainly true that St. Paul had issues with the Corinthians when he wrote to them, and in the context into which he wrote (Corinth being Corinth), his words were of particular importance to them. But to expand the instructions from their particular context into the general situation of the world through time is to interpret them in a manner that is not consonant with the rest of Holy Scripture. Loving one’s neighbour as one’s self has much more to do with working for the welfare of the city than it has to do with hiving off into isolated communes.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[spiritblows]

tossolul:

Are you saying that if you see a fellow brother who is lost, and not seeing God in obvious ways that you in fact should turn your back on him instead of helping in any charitable way possible to let Him see God?? simply because he is not ‘one of us’?

I doubt if that’s what the passage meant, since the early Church was obviously growing and spreading the Gospel. But, to me it sounds as if, once you were a part of the Church you were held to a much higher code of conduct than we do today.

Regarding the Culture Wars, which was title of the thread, I wonder if the Church is really called to fight the larger culture, such as vice outside the Church. etc. It sounds as if the early Church was basically told to mind it’s own business and it’s own house and leave the larger world to God.

Do you all think that advise given to the early Church is applicable today? Or was it geared towards different circumstances than what we now find ourselves in?

 

[spiritblows]

Dear Gerry,
Good passage there. Of course, I look more to the New Testament for guidance, but I think that passage is a reasonable one for our concern for our nations general moral state.

OTOH, I think the passage that I provided shows that our main moral focus should start within the Church. As far as the Amish, I’ve always had a deep admiration for them and their unworldly ways. Remember that the Catechism states that we should honor in other religions what is good and right. We shouldn’t discount things in the Amish that reflect Heavenly virtues. They are really a remarkable people. And, they are much less worldly than your average Catholic, living lives with strict codes of behaviour, no unlike some of our monastic communities.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

spiritblows:

Dear Gerry,
Good passage there. Of course, I look more to the New Testament for guidance, but I think that passage is a reasonable one for our concern for our nations general moral state.

It’s probably best to look to both. Jesus did not reiterate everything in the OT, but he certainly did say he came to fulfill every bit of it.

spiritblows:

OTOH, I think the passage that I provided shows that our main moral focus should start within the Church. As far as the Amish, I’ve always had a deep admiration for them and their unworldly ways. Remember that the Catechism states that we should honor in other religions what is good and right. We shouldn’t discount things in the Amish that reflect Heavenly virtues. They are really a remarkable people. And, they are much less worldly than your average Catholic, living lives with strict codes of behaviour, no unlike some of our monastic communities.

Yes, we must certainly look to keeping our own house in good order, but we must not stop there. And although the Amish may be good and virtuous people, their way of secluding themselves is somewhat of a copping out from the call given in the Great Commission. Monasticism, remember, is a particular calling, not one for the general population. The Shakers (a Quaker sect), lived a similarly austere and withdrawn lifestyle, even rejecting sex – all sex, even between married couples. They grew in numbers only through converts. Guess what: they died out.

We must also remember that it is Catholic teaching that the world is not bad. That’s a Gnostic heresy. God created the world good, and it remains a good place in which bad things happen, under the rule of a usurping Prince of this world. And we must do what we can to minimize those bad happenings. We must not become so heavenly minded that we become of no earthly good, because, then, who will lead people to the Lord, and see to their needs through temporal acts of mercy?

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[spiritblows]

Dear Gerry,
I disagree that monastic values are not for the laity. I think the Eastern Church has done a better job of bringing them to the people, with a stricter fasting regimen imposed on the laity. The Amish are vital, productive people who have done a good job of maintaining their values and lifestyle in the face of a powerful materialistic society that has not always been supportive of their strict ways.

They might not recognise Apostolic Succession, and some other theological truths, but as far as living the Gospel and being in the world, not of it, I do believe they do an excellent job of it.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

I’m actually not too keen on the use of the concept of “values.” They are determined by a marketplace, or a melieu, rather than flowing from revealed truth. But certainly, the monk, the lay Catholic, or the Christian, can each give expressions to those truths which, though different in form, can exemplify them.

We are involved here with the concept of vocations. Some are called to Holy Orders and religious life; some of them are called to monastic, even cloistered, communities. But there is no universal call for Christian believers to withdraw from the world as the primary expression of the Christian call. Indeed, the vocation of marriage and family is indeed a vocation, and no less important a one because of its predominance. In that way, in spite any sincerity and ardour, the withdrawal from the world, letting it go as it may, even to avoid contamination (which we are to do by resisting it, with God’s help, not by shunning the world), is a flawed Christian expression.

I once met an ordained Vocational Deacon, also a medical doctor, who assisted in assessing Catholic men for suitability for the priesthood or religious life. He made it very clear that seeking to escape from the world was almost always considered a very negative indicator of suitability for religious life.

C.S. Lewis once wrote about the importance of the Christian who engages the world (as distinct, to be sure, from selling out to it). He noted that if there were to be art, music, literature, political systems, and social systems which reflected the Christian calling, then they would have to come from Christian artists, musicians, writers, and so on, and not from a collection of clerics. One cannot do any of that in a closed community, but it is all to be done. Also, doing these things is not the main concern of the Church – saving souls is. So it must be the members of the Church, going out and engaging the world, who do it. And nobody said it would be easy. Without the Church, and a Church that focuses on its first priority mission, the risks of being consumed by the world become much greater.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[spiritblows]

Dear Gerry,
Well, I wouldn’t mind seeing some Amish style communities pop up in our Church. I don’t see any reason why married Catholics couldn’t have structured communities like monastic orders. I think the Amish are totally admirable in their lifestyle. They aren’t withdrawn totally from the world, BTW, so I don’t think that’s an accurate statement at all.

I do agree with you that the Catholic concept of ‘vocations’ is a very powerful one. We can do a lot of good for the Kingdom of God in the world as long as we remain unaffected by it. I don’t think most of us do, however. I personally admit that I’m too materialist at times. The world has many temptations that are harmful to our souls, and none of us remain unaffected.

 

[felra]

spiritblows:

I doubt if that’s what the passage meant, since the early Church was obviously growing and spreading the Gospel. But, to me it sounds as if, once you were a part of the Church you were held to a much higher code of conduct than we do today.

Do you all think that advise given to the early Church is applicable today? Or was it geared towards different circumstances than what we now find ourselves in?

I believe that St. Paul was quite sobering in his warning to the early Christian Church and that the Holy Spirit likewise intends this sober wake up call to us the Church today:

“But whoever is made to suffer as a Christian should not be ashamed but glorify God because of the name. For it is time for the judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, how will it end for those who fail to obey the gospel of God? “And if the righteous one is barely saved, where will the godless and the sinner appear?” 1 Peter 4: 16-18

 

[felra]

spiritblows:

Regarding the Culture Wars, which was title of the thread, I wonder if the Church is really called to fight the larger culture, such as vice outside the Church. etc. It sounds as if the early Church was basically told to mind it’s own business and it’s own house and leave the larger world to God.

Besides fighting against vice, I believe that the Church is called to resist the “falleness” of this world and called to example a compelling witness to those in need of the saving Gospel.

Our late Pope John Paul II explicitly instructed this in his apostolic exhortation “The role of the Christian Family in the Modern World” given on November 22, 1981.

http://www.dads.org/consortio.asp

Familiaris Consortio Apostolic Exhortation

TO THE EPISCOPATE TO THE CLERGY AND TO THE FAITHFUL OF THE WHOLE CATHOLIC CHURCH

(excerpt)

1. Illuminated by the faith that gives her an understanding of all the truth concerning the great value of marriage and the family and their deepest meaning, the church once again feels the pressing need to proclaim the Gospel, that is the “good news,” to all people without exception, in particular to all those who are called to marriage and are preparing for it, to all married couples and parents in the world.

The church is deeply convinced that only by the acceptance of the Gospel are the hopes that man legitimately places in marriage and in the family capable of being fulfilled.

1. This understanding is therefore an inescapable requirement of the work of evangelization. It is, in fact, to the families of our times that the church must bring the unchangeable and ever new gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it is the families involved in the present conditions of the world that are called to accept and to live the plan of God that pertains to them.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

spiritblows:

They aren’t withdrawn totally from the world, BTW, so I don’t think that’s an accurate statement at all.

Well, I won’t quibble over “totally,” but just note that education beyond grade 8 is discouraged, they forbid the ownership or use of vehicles and mechanized farm equipment, do not use electricity or electrical devices, cannot have in-home telephones, and forbid photography, among other things, and refuse to participate in health and welfare programs, in the Old Order (the Swartzentruber Amish are even more restrictive).

Blessings,

Gerry