The definition of sin

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Polak

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I’m still slightly confused by this one.

You only commit a sin when you know it is a sin and do it anyway.

So people who don’t know something is a sin, as is generally the case with non believers for example, are not committing a sin when they do something that would be considered a sin if a Catholic or Christian did it? An example of this might be sex outside of marriage.

This is a difficult one to get your head around. It’s almost as if believers have more chance of being sinners in God’s eyes, that non believers.
 
That’s not correct. See Romans 1 for a good analysis… there is culpability in many cases of “explicit ignorance,” as some laws are “written on the heart.”
 
Polak said:
I’m still slightly confused by this one.

You only commit a sin when you know it is a sin and do it anyway.

So people who don’t know something is a sin, as is generally the case with non believers for example, are not committing a sin when they do something that would be considered a sin if a Catholic or Christian did it? An example of this might be sex outside of marriage.

This is a difficult one to get your head around. It’s almost as if believers have more chance of being sinners in God’s eyes, that non believers.
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There are two classes for sin: formal and material.
  • Material sin is objectively a moral evil, but a person does it either under duress and without internal consent to the evil, or without knowing it is wrong. It however cannot be called material if the person intentionally has no regard for what is morally right and does not care to find out.
  • Formal sin is voluntary sin and can even be merely in the intention to do something which it believed to be wrong, even though it is not. The key is what is in the heart. Sin is uncharitable.
Is it better to not know? Suppose someone is baptized and a believer and remains in a state of grace, then that person may gain merit and it will be rewarded in heaven if that it the persons final end. Those that are not baptized until, say, just before their birth, were not able to gain merits to the same degree and will not be rewarded as much if heaven is that it the persons final end. Also, remaining free from sin means less temporal punishment (purgatory).
 
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So how about my example of sex outside of marriage? Are the people doing it still sinning, even if they don’t believe that it is a sin, through ignorance?
 
Polak said:
So how about my example of sex outside of marriage? Are the people doing it still sinning, even if they don’t believe that it is a sin, through ignorance?
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Fornication is a bad because it is unlike marriage which intends a lifelong union and provision for any offspring, and educating them in the faith. Fornication feeds multiple partners, birth control usage, and abortions. This can be see through the reason and therefore a person cannot easily skirt moral responsibility.
 
Failure to properly form ones’ conscience is the sin of negligence. Negligence can be mortally sinful.
 
Lets tell a little story:

You have a best friend. One day your Friend dropped $100 on the ground. Someone comes along and picks it up. That person did not see who dropped it, so he’s ignorant, and it might be wrong for him to keep it, but he doesn’t know who it belongs to, so he just keeps it.

Now, say your friend doesn’t drop the money but is pick-pocketed. Now your friend is very upset at that specific person for pick-pocketing it, and might even go to the police for justice.

Now say that YOU stole your friend’s $100. What would happen between you and your friend? How would it be different than with some random pick-pocket?

Which one of these situations is worse?

It may be true to say believers are more likely to be “sinners”, but maybe you should instead view how great it is to be a friend of God! And how fortunate you are to have a friend who will forgive you when you steal their $100, and how much you want to share that friendship with everyone. Right?
 
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Yes. Again, take a look at Romans 1. Paul talks about this kind of thing…
 
The act itself will always be wrong. Whether you are blamed for that act, and to what degree, can depend on your knowledge.
 
Polak said:
It’s almost as if believers have more chance of being sinners in God’s eyes, that non believers.
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That is correct. To whom much is given, much is required. Luke 12:48.

(The whole passage surrounding Luke 12:48 concerning servants and their knowledge of Master’s will addresses exactly this sort of situation. )
Polak said:
This is a difficult one to get your head around.
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Not particularly. People with knowledge in society are always held to a higher standard because they are expected to “know better” and be more responsible than a person who lacks knowledge. If a doctor failed to take precautions and infected 50 people with a disease, we would be more horrified than if a street sweeper failed to take precautions and infected 50 people with the same disease, because we expect more from the doctor, even though the net result of 50 infected people is the same in both cases.
 
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Polak said:
I’m still slightly confused by this one.

You only commit a sin when you know it is a sin and do it anyway.
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No, this is not accurate.

Think about it from two perspectives: objective and subjective.

A sin, objectively speaking, is a sin. No matter what, it’s a sin.

However, when we talk about culpability for sin, we’re talking about the subjective dimension. In this case, there is such a thing as objectively grave matter. If you are unaware that the act is gravely sinful, or if you don’t have complete consent to the act, then the sin is merely venial. If it’s grave, and you know it’s grave, and you freely consent to it, then the sin is mortal.

Does that help?
Polak said:
It’s almost as if believers have more chance of being sinners in God’s eyes, that non believers.
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Nah. We’re all sinners. However, as Jesus put it, “[m]uch will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.”
 
Sin is sin. Our culpability for the sin varies, so that there may very well be many people who are not guilty of fornication or lying or any sins.
 
Nonbelievers know when they are sinning. There is a natural law written in their hearts and their conscience informs them.
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church -

III. THE NEW LAW OR THE LAW OF THE GOSPEL

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."19

GOD does not lie.

CCC The Moral Law
 
Dan_Defender said:
Nonbelievers know when they are sinning. There is a natural law written in their hearts and their conscience informs them.
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Um, believers don’t always know when they are sinning. We’re not talking about obvious stuff like lying, bank robbery, or murder here.

I have actually had discussions with a confessor about not knowing something was a sin because I misunderstood well-meant information I received from another Catholic and thought something was okay, decades later I learned it was not. It happens.

The confessor took the position that because I didn’t know, I didn’t sin. By that I presume (Given that he was an elderly learned priest assigned to a Cathedral who had just spent 10 minutes in a heated argument over something with the guy confessing in front of me) he meant all the stuff Gorgias and others already explained about objectively it’s still a sinful act but I wasn’t culpable etc. He just said it in 5 words or less.
 
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Roguish said:
non-believers have no chance of Salvation.
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Incorrect, and at odds with the Catechism, as we’ve already discussed on dozens of threads, so I won’t belabor the point here.

Unless you are contending that they somehow all convert at the moment of death if they are saved, which is likely true, but has nothing to do with their behavior during life on earth.
 
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The will of God includes holiness and godliness.

Sin is opposed to the will of God.

Let us conform ourselves to holiness, godliness, purity, righteousness, seeking the Kingdom of God, prayerfulness, faith, hope and love rather than to sin.

When we may “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”, then we are praying for an end to sin.
 
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Dan_Defender said:
There is a natural law written in their hearts and their conscience informs them.
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Ahh, but that presumes that they have a well-formed conscience, doesn’t it? Not all do. And, for those who have formed their conscience poorly, there are no ‘warning bells’ that go off when they should.
Roguish said:
But non-believers have no chance of Salvation.
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Umm… no! That’s not at all what the Church teaches!
Tis_Bearself said:
The confessor took the position that because I didn’t know, I didn’t sin. By that I presume he meant all the stuff Gorgias and others already explained about objectively it’s still a sinful act but I wasn’t culpable etc. He just said it in 5 words or less.
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🤣
I do have a tendency to go on and on. Comes from my work experience teaching / training. Five words or less? Hmm… “Nope; not sin. Trust me.” Does that work? 🤔
 
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