The "deification" of man

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Katholikos

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This thread is a spin-off from The Many Gods of Mormonism and from the thread for ex-Catholics to post their stories in the Non-Catholic Churches forum.
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TOmNossor:
As I struggled with some things, I emerged with the somewhat spiritual, somewhat logical conviction that God the Father wanted me to be like him. He wanted to deify me. God became man that I might become God, deified.

I was already wandering in Catholic circles at this time, but when I found the above truth solidly put forth in the modern Catholic Church I began a more concentrated search.
Charity, TOm
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I have tried to persuade TOm that “deification” to a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox means that we are ADOPTED sons and daughters of God, partakers in the Divine Nature (1 Peter 1:4) through the Sacraments, which convey to us God’s Own Divine Life. But he’s not buying the truth.

TOm insists on twisting the Church’s teaching and believing what he wants to believe. And he wants to believe that Church teaches – just as does the LDS church – the doctrine that men will become gods after death. He insists that while this may not be formal doctrine, this belief is “an available option” for Catholics. He quotes JPII and the ECFs (e.g., see CCC #460).

I have told him (on another thread) that not only is it not an available option, it would be mortally sinful for Catholics to hold such an expectation.

It started with Adam and Eve (“you will be like God” Genesis 3:5).

There is no accounting for the lengths a man will go to in order to “prove” to himself that he will become a god, as Mormonism promises – even comforting himself with the false belief that the Catholic Church teaches this also.

If anyone has any apologetics material on the Catholic (and Orthodox) meaning of “deification,” please share it. The Ask an Apologist forum turned my question down.

JMJ Jay
 
Did they turn you down because they are closed for the weekend? Just curious…
 
Although Christians share in the life of God, they are not gods. There is only one God. The following episode from the Bible makes this pretty clear:
"Now at Lystra there was a man sitting, who could not use his feet; he was a cripple from birth, who had never walked. He listened to Paul speaking; and Paul, looking intently at him and seeing that he had faith to be made well, said in a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he sprang up and walked. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!” Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, because he was the chief speaker, they called Hermes. And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifice with the people. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out among the multitude, crying, "Men, why are you doing this? We also are men, of like nature with you, and bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. (Acts 14:8-15)
 
I just posted Tom about this thread. I hope he drops in to comment. This is the most fundamental difference (among very, very many differences) between the Catholic Church and LDS. Monotheism vs. Polytheism. I don’t think any LDS claim to continuity can be taken seriously with their holding to a polytheistic religion.

Peter John
 
Please respond to me in this thread. I have already quoted a number of ECF (about 5 and I could add about 45 more) and a number of modern Catholics (about 5 and I am pretty much spent).

BTW, I and all LDS reject the term polytheist. I am almost all LDS reject the term henothiest. I am a Trinitarian monotheist who believes in a deifications associated with the uniting of men with God. My Social Trinitarian structure is more conducive to this than an Augustinian Trinitarian stucture, but somehow Catholics CAN embrace the statement, “men may become gods.”

Here is the thread.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1624

Charity, TOm
 
Glory to Jesus Christ!

I believe in Theosis, also known a Divinization. Also becoming Godlike, or Holy.

But these are loaded terms. The word ‘god’ with a small ‘G’ only has the meaning we bring with it. If by god we mean something on the order of Baal or Jupiter, commanding worship and having powers, then no, that’s a bad concept.

WE will become (hopefully) like Adam before the fall. If he was a god then fine, if not that’s fine too. People can argue past one another on these things if they cannot agree on terminology, and it’s unhealthy.

We cannot argue with the true words of scripture, but we might puzzle all day about what they mean. One good reason to have a church that can really teach the message and reach culture after culture in every language from age to age!

Michael, that sinner
 
Really, I fail to understand why this is such a difficult concept, but I’ll throw out a couple things.

I am human. I was born that way. I will always be human. It is my NATURE. I was born with a physical human nature and a spiritual human nature - the soul.

We can become more *like *God, and we are called to do so. But for us to become God, our nature would need to change from human to divine. That can’t happen. The reason it cannot happen is because the nature of God is eternal. While I may have been created to be immortal (the soul), I am not eternal. I am now, but always wasn’t. That simple fact cannot change. An elemental nature of God is the fact that He is eternal. Without that aspect, He is not God. Without that aspect, I am not God.

And yes, Jesus had a dual nature, proving that the human and divine can comingle. But that only works because Jesus is eternal. He has divine nature and is eternal. The fact that He also has human nature is irrelevant to the argument that we could become God.

We are created. None of us know what power God may give us. But no matter what it is, the best one could ever say is that it is *like *God, and all such power would be granted for the intent of serving Him. It will never be about us.
 
gomer tree:
Really, I fail to understand why this is such a difficult concept, but I’ll throw out a couple things.

I am human. I was born that way. I will always be human. It is my NATURE. I was born with a physical human nature and a spiritual human nature - the soul.

We can become more *like *God, and we are called to do so. But for us to become God, our nature would need to change from human to divine. That can’t happen. The reason it cannot happen is because the nature of God is eternal. While I may have been created to be immortal (the soul), I am not eternal. I am now, but always wasn’t. That simple fact cannot change. An elemental nature of God is the fact that He is eternal. Without that aspect, He is not God. Without that aspect, I am not God.

And yes, Jesus had a dual nature, proving that the human and divine can comingle. But that only works because Jesus is eternal. He has divine nature and is eternal. The fact that He also has human nature is irrelevant to the argument that we could become God.

We are created. None of us know what power God may give us. But no matter what it is, the best one could ever say is that it is *like *God, and all such power would be granted for the intent of serving Him. It will never be about us.
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I addressed becoming uncreated in the thread I linked too. I really do not want to repeat all I posted there here.

Hesychios,
I totally agree that we must define terms. Perhaps someone can explain what the terms used by the Catholics I quote mean.
I can explain what I mean by deification and I think I have.

Charity, TOm
 
**St. Athanasius, Doctor of the Church **

“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”

**St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church **

“The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

St. Augustine, Doctor of the Church

“God became man so that man could become God.”
 
The answer to this quandry (if it still exists) might lie in Interior Castle, in St. Teresa’s description of “spiritual marriage”. This process is the culmination of a soul’s spiritual life (prior to death, anyway), where the Blessed Trinity dwells in union with the human soul. Here is a excerpt:

*"…But here [spiritual marriage] it is like rain falling from the heavens into a river or a spring; there is nothing but water there and it is impossible to divide or separate the water belonging to the river from that which fell from the heavens. Or it is as if a tiny streamlet enters the sea, from which it will find no way of separating itself, or as if in a room there were two large windows through which the light streamed in: it enters in different places but it all becomes one.

Perhaps when St. Paul says: “He who is joined to God becomes one spirit with Him,” he is referring to this sovereign Marriage, which presupposes the entrance of His Majesty into the soul by union. And he also says: Mihi vivere Christus est, mori lucrum…"*
**
I hope this is readable and helpful. Peace.
 
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LuigiColetta:
Did they turn you down because they are closed for the weekend? Just curious…
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No, they turned me down. Period. I got a standard blurb about asking Qs that appeal to a wide audience and keeping requests short. And a suggeston that I post my Q on the forum. I think everyone who is refused gets the same message.

You can see from TOmNorris’s response here on this thread that he will not be convinced unless I can give him the Church’s official teaching on “deification.” He keeps asking, “Who is your scholar?” I asked cinapol, another discussion group with great apologists, for their (name removed by moderator)ut. One subscriber said he had also looked for a apologetic on the topic of “deification” and found none. It was suggested that This Rock publish an article. In other words, no help seemed to be available.

All Catholics seem to know that deification means becoming adopted sons and daughters of God and “partaking in the divine nature” through the Sacraments, but we can’t find an official statement to that effect
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I gave e-friend TOm a quote from an Orthodox book, but that wasn’t enough. So he continues to insist that Catholics are invited by the Pope and others to believe that they will become gods after death, just as Mormonism teaches.

My thanks to you and to all who resonded to this thread.
 
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Katholikos:
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I gave e-friend TOm a quote from an Orthodox book, but that wasn’t enough. So he continues to insist that Catholics are invited by the Pope and others to believe that they will become gods after death, just as Mormonism teaches.

My thanks to you and to all who resonded to this thread.
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Surely, if TOm’s view of Catholic teaching were true, then we would all know about it. Sorry TOm, we don’t have anything in common with the Mormons on this issue.
 
For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."

We don’t become God but like God. God made us in His image. What is God’s image? Pure unadultered love, pure, sinnless,merciful. This is the image that we strive for. When we go against the teachings of God we become un-God like. Christ came to us as a full human being and God to show us that it is possible to become God like not God. How can we become God when He created us?

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory be Forever!
 
was immediately locked and no reason or reply given.except veronica sent me a personal msg telling me it was probably because of website maintenance. i wonder if it is just too ‘hot’ topically? guess i’ll just keep on studying and going to mass and hope for the best:confused:

QUOTE=Katholikos]This thread is a spin-off from The Many Gods of Mormonism and from the thread for ex-Catholics to post their stories in the Non-Catholic Churches forum.

I have tried to persuade TOm that “deification” to a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox means that we are ADOPTED sons and daughters of God, partakers in the Divine Nature (1 Peter 1:4) through the Sacraments, which convey to us God’s Own Divine Life. But he’s not buying the truth.

TOm insists on twisting the Church’s teaching and believing what he wants to believe. And he wants to believe that Church teaches – just as does the LDS church – the doctrine that men will become gods after death. He insists that while this may not be formal doctrine, this belief is “an available option” for Catholics. He quotes JPII and the ECFs (e.g., see CCC #460).

I have told him (on another thread) that not only is it not an available option, it would be mortally sinful for Catholics to hold such an expectation.

It started with Adam and Eve (“you will be like God” Genesis 3:5).

There is no accounting for the lengths a man will go to in order to “prove” to himself that he will become a god, as Mormonism promises – even comforting himself with the false belief that the Catholic Church teaches this also.

If anyone has any apologetics material on the Catholic (and Orthodox) meaning of “deification,” please share it. The Ask an Apologist forum turned my question down.

JMJ Jay
 
thanks for explaining why my thread was locked. i understand now. i am still recovering, so i am still basing some of my reactions, questions, commentaries on the only religion i have ever known, so i guess that’s why i’m so hung up on the being ‘right’ and perfect about things. please forgive any negativity i may have conveyed. :bowdown2:
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mochi:
was immediately locked and no reason or reply given.except veronica sent me a personal msg telling me it was probably because of website maintenance. i wonder if it is just too ‘hot’ topically? guess i’ll just keep on studying and going to mass and hope for the best:confused:

QUOTE=Katholikos]This thread is a spin-off from The Many Gods of Mormonism and from the thread for ex-Catholics to post their stories in the Non-Catholic Churches forum.

I have tried to persuade TOm that “deification” to a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox means that we are ADOPTED sons and daughters of God, partakers in the Divine Nature (1 Peter 1:4) through the Sacraments, which convey to us God’s Own Divine Life. But he’s not buying the truth.

TOm insists on twisting the Church’s teaching and believing what he wants to believe. And he wants to believe that Church teaches – just as does the LDS church – the doctrine that men will become gods after death. He insists that while this may not be formal doctrine, this belief is “an available option” for Catholics. He quotes JPII and the ECFs (e.g., see CCC #460).

I have told him (on another thread) that not only is it not an available option, it would be mortally sinful for Catholics to hold such an expectation.

It started with Adam and Eve (“you will be like God” Genesis 3:5).

There is no accounting for the lengths a man will go to in order to “prove” to himself that he will become a god, as Mormonism promises – even comforting himself with the false belief that the Catholic Church teaches this also.

If anyone has any apologetics material on the Catholic (and Orthodox) meaning of “deification,” please share it. The Ask an Apologist forum turned my question down.

JMJ Jay
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It’s also been very difficult for me to believe that we will become God in life and nature. However I do have an understanding that once we have accepted Christ into our lives, we become partakers of some of his attributes. But I don’t believe we will become God fully in nature in this life because we continue to sin and live immorally. Perhaps when we die, we will be transfigured and regenerated inorder to become partakers of God Almighty.

I believe we are image bearers, not gods! We reflect Him; we are not Him. In the same way an image in the mirror reflects the surface of me, but is not me, so humans reflect the image of God… but that is only the surface.
 
  1. In order that both these things may be the better understood, let us make a comparison. A ray of sunlight is striking a window. If the window is in any way stained or misty, the sun’s ray will be unable to illumine it and transform it into its own light, totally, as it would if it were clean of all these things, and pure; but it will illumine it to a lesser degree, in proportion as it is less free from those mists and stains; and will do so to a greater degree, in proportion as it is cleaner from them, and this will not be because of the sun’s ray, but because of itself; so much so that, if it be wholly pure and clean, the ray of sunlight will transform it and illumine it in such wise that it will itself seem to be a ray and will give the same light as the ray. Although in reality the window has a nature distinct from that of the ray itself, however much it may resemble it, yet we may say that that window is a ray of the sun or is light by participation. And the soul is like this window, whereupon is ever beating (or, to express it better, wherein is ever dwelling) this Divine light of the Being of God according to nature, which we have described.
  2. In thus allowing God to work in it, the soul (having rid itself of every mist and stain of the creatures, which consists in having its will perfectly united with that of God, for to love is to labour to detach and strip itself for God’s sake of all that is not God) is at once illumined and transformed in God, and God communicates to it His supernatural Being, in such wise that it appears to be God Himself, and has all that God Himself has. And this union comes to pass when God grants the soul this supernatural favour, that all the things of God and the soul are one in participant transformation; and the soul seems to be God rather than a soul, and is indeed God by participation; although it is true that its natural being, though thus transformed, is as distinct from the Being of God as it was before, even as the window has likewise a nature distinct from that of the ray, though the ray gives it brightness.
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St. John of the Cross, from Ascent of Mt. Carmel.
Therefore Deity as such cannot be partaken of except by some essentially supernatural gift. And, conversely, grace cannot be essentially supernatural unless it is a formal and physical participation in the divine nature as divine, that is, in the intimate life of God, or Deity as Deity, ordaining us to the knowledge of God as He Himself knows Himself immediately and to the love of God as He loves Himself.

Furthermore, sanctifying grace is a participation in Deity as it is in itself and not merely as it is known to us. For it is produced in our soul by an immediate infusion altogether independently of our knowledge of the Deity; and just as Deity as such is communicated to the Son by eternal generation, so Deity as such is partaken of by the just, especially by the blessed, through divine adoption.

Hence, materially, grace is a finite accident, an entitative habit, but formally it is a formal participation in Deity as it is in itself, as it subsists in the three persons. Thus it is clearly evident that Deity as such in a certain sense surpasses being and intellection, since all absolutely simple perfections are identified in the eminence of Deity and can be naturally participated in, but Deity cannot be participated in naturally.
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Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (theology instructor at the Angelicum in Rome, and teacher of Pope John Paul II), from Grace: Commentary on the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas

There are countless other quotes that could be given, but these two are the most illustrative of Catholic teaching on Grace and deification, IMO. We become what is called theologically “formal participants in the Divine Nature”, meaning that we receive the Divine form over our nature (hence the term “supernatural”). We do not receive the Divine Nature, or form, in the sense of becoming it, but it is overlaid over our own and transforms us.

This is why I think St. John of the Cross’ illustration of the window is the best, as it preserves the original nature of the receiver while at the same time clearly demonstrating that the receiver is elevated beyond its nature, and participates in something all-together “other” than itself without becoming that thing. By Grace we Love with God’s Love, Live with God’s Life, Know with God’s Wisdom, but we never cease being human, we never BECOME God’s Love and Life and Wisdom the way that God IS Love, Life, and Wisdom. Just as the window shines with the sun’s light, warms with the sun’s heat, and brightens with the sun’s rays.

This topic is actually a bit of a focus for me, so I’ll be happy to help with it if desired. Having not read the original threads being referenced, I don’t know how anyone’s views square with the Catholic understanding, but I do know that there is a huge gap between the traditional Mormon teaching and the Apostolic (Catholic and Orthodox) understanding of Grace and deification.

Peace and God bless!
 
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