The Didache and fasting on wednesdays

[YADA]

Just at a glance:

But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

But after you are filled, thus give thanks: [etc.]

If he who comes is a wayfarer, assist him as far as you are able; but he shall not remain with you, except for two or three days, if need be.

We encouraged our RCIA catechumens and candidates to fast before the Easter Vigil - not necessarily for two days … but to fast if they were able - and their Godparents/Sponsors …

Again - these practices have not ever totally disappeared …

To the OP -

I became a Catholic out of a love for history and studying the early Christian writings and the Didache is one I love … its really like an early instruction on the practices - both for individuals and Liturgy with the fundamentals of the Faith …

When I read it - I do not get discouraged or doubt the Church Christ founded - in fact the little hairs in the back of my neck tingle as I realize how little the Church has changed in the intervening 2000 years and many cultural influences it has touched and been absorbed into …

Look at the lists of thou shalt not … look at the Eucharistic prayers … yes - the prayer over the Cup is listed before the Bread and the prayers said today are longer - but they are essentially the same …

Many of our separated brethren do not know why they restrict Communion to those who have been baptized [and some no longer do that now - but was almost universal in the Protestant and Bible Churches of my youth] … the earliest place you will find that in writing is the Didache …

Re-read the Didache and look at the Teachings found in it - pray with with the teachings found in it … I believe that you will discover that the Church who most closely aligns itself with the teachings found there is the Catholic Church and your heart will find the doubts a faint memory.

 

[Omaestre]

Just at a glance:

But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

But after you are filled, thus give thanks: [etc.]

If he who comes is a wayfarer, assist him as far as you are able; but he shall not remain with you, except for two or three days, if need be.

1. True, but I think this refers to adult baptism, children and especially babies were not to fast. I don’t know if priests fast before the sacrament of baptism, I do however know that prior to Vatican 2 there was a fast before mass, and if the baptism happened in conjunction with a mass there everyone would already be fasting.
2. Giving thanks, I presume is either in conjunction with liturgy which I believe the priest does express, and the laity that return to their pews probably pray silently. The words of the exact prayer may not be the same, but the act of thanksgiving is still preserved. Point 7 even recommends that followers allow their priests to give thanks in manner they find fitting.
3. I don’t see how this is not still church teaching, almost every homily is about our duty to help those in need, to love our neighbour and here to give shelter to those who wander. Granted not many travel by foot seeking shelter, but surely this can be interpreted as helping strangers in need of shelter like refugees.
   Or else I misunderstand you and what you think has changed.

 

[YADA]

You are probably right, but I’d still like to know why and when the church stopped including it in its teachings?

…

Hence why I am specifically asking for a when and why the practice was changed into a personal devotion rather than a church discipline.

The Didache is very old however, I do not think that it was universally used - more of a document that was circulated in a particular area - thus I am not sure that every practice - every instruction written in it was a practice that was binding on the entire church - some yes - you can see that in the Church today … others may have been related to local Custom

Even the reference to the practice of the Jewish fast - may mean that the Community was in an area where there was a Jewish population and the fasts were prescribed to distinguish the Christian Community from them … in another area where there were very few Jews - the practice of fasting may have not been practiced as vigorously …

I am reminded of the mandatory Friday Fasts here in America that ended with Vatican II - replaced by a penitential action of one’s choosing [which I fear happens rarely - a topic for another thread though] … that was never a universal practice …other Countries did not have that practice - Canada was one. At the Council when relaxing this was being discussed a Bishop from Africa stood up and said “You must be from very affluent Countries with plenty to eat if you can decide which days you will not eat meat and which days you will” [forgive me if that is not a direct quote - but its close to his meaning]

Similarly with fasting on Wednesday and Friday … many people fast not out of choice for spiritual gain but out of necessity and lack of resources … that is true today - it was true 2000 years ago and every year n between…

Please do not let this be a stumbling block to you

 

[Omaestre]

We encouraged our RCIA catechumens and candidates to fast before the Easter Vigil - not necessarily for two days … but to fast if they were able - and their Godparents/Sponsors …

Again - these practices have not ever totally disappeared …

To the OP -

I became a Catholic out of a love for history and studying the early Christian writings and the Didache is one I love … its really like an early instruction on the practices - both for individuals and Liturgy with the fundamentals of the Faith …

When I read it - I do not get discouraged or doubt the Church Christ founded - in fact the little hairs in the back of my neck tingle as I realize how little the Church has changed in the intervening 2000 years and many cultural influences it has touched and been absorbed into …

Look at the lists of thou shalt not … look at the Eucharistic prayers … yes - the prayer over the Cup is listed before the Bread and the prayers said today are longer - but they are essentially the same …

Many of our separated brethren do not know why they restrict Communion to those who have been baptized [and some no longer do that now - but was almost universal in the Protestant and Bible Churches of my youth] … the earliest place you will find that in writing is the Didache …

Re-read the Didache and look at the Teachings found in it - pray with with the teachings found in it … I believe that you will discover that the Church who most closely aligns itself with the teachings found there is the Catholic Church and your heart will find the doubts a faint memory.

I came to the Catholic church for much the same reasons, but ever since learning about the Orthodox church I have been conflicted.

If I read the Didache as an Orthodox believer there are no points of contention between their current practice and the practice of the Church back then. As far as I can tell they haven’t changed a thing in regards to praxis.

Since there is no mention of the Pope in the Didache how do you discern?

That is why I wanted to know a why and when, perhaps there is some document that explains the changes in regards to the praxis in the west.

 

[Omaestre]

The Didache is very old however, I do not think that it was universally used - more of a document that was circulated in a particular area - thus I am not sure that every practice - every instruction written in it was a practice that was binding on the entire church -

I would think it was, as this was basically the first catechism of the Church, and a later document called the Didascalia Apostolorum was based on it which was widespread by the time the Church became the state religion.

Similarly with fasting on Wednesday and Friday … many people fast not out of choice for spiritual gain but out of necessity and lack of resources … that is true today - it was true 2000 years ago and every year n between…

Absolutely, another aspect of fasting is how it humbles you to understand through sensation what so many people go through due to this worlds lack of mercy. Fasting like prayer can change ones disposition, from giving little and helping little,to doing more and more. Good can originate from suffering.

Please do not let this be a stumbling block to you

I thank you for your genuine concern, and I truly wish it wasn’t a stumbling block. But I feel so confused and worst of all I don’t feel the church is actively seeking for me to convert my heart from stone to flesh. Reading Christ’s words in the Gospels are unnerving, Christ has called us all to be saints, but sainthood seems almost impossible, I kind of understand Kierkegaards anxiety and what Paul meant when talking about “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” .

I want to practice the faith, the same way as those who were closest to Christ.

 

[YADA]

I came to the Catholic church for much the same reasons, but ever since learning about the Orthodox church I have been conflicted.

If I read the Didache as an Orthodox believer there are no points of contention between their current practice and the practice of the Church back then. As far as I can tell they haven’t changed a thing in regards to praxis.

Since there is no mention of the Pope in the Didache how do you discern?

That is why I wanted to know a why and when, perhaps there is some document that explains the changes in regards to the praxis in the west.

I had a journey of faith too … and considered Orthodoxy … FYI the Didache comes from that geographic area thus those local practices are more likely to be found there … and there Eastern Rites within the Catholic Church - the Latin Rite is just the largest.

So if you wondered why I stayed with in the unity of the Catholic Church and not Orthodox - it was specifically because of the Petrine Office …and the Scriptures … I know there is lots of discussions here and people can and do argue the scripture passages in Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox defense …

Growing up Protestant the arguments I heard really fell flat. Obviously it seemed to me - Jesus founded a church - singular - and prayed for them to be one. I went to enough different churches to know that they did not have common beliefs and were not one in that respect. The Apostles were given a distinct mission to absolve sins with the power to bind and loose and Paul’s admonishment to solve disputes and of not take it to the Church. Add to that the Church being the pillar and foundation of truth.

From the Orthodox perspective - While all the Apostles were given the power to bind and loose sins only one Apostle was given the Keys … and Jesus practically quotes Isaiah word for word when He gives Peter the Keys and says whatever he [Peter] opens or shuts on earth is open or closed in Heaven - this is broader than absolving or binding sins - so the authority is similar but not exactly the same. In Isaiah we have the image of the Prime Minister - acting on behalf of the King … if more than one [besides the King because the King never gives up the Mater Key] has the key then this what the PM has closed none can open and what he opens none can close doesn’t work - ditto with Peter. And Jesus is not the PM as some would try to say - that is demoting Jesus from his Davidic Kingdom - King of Kings to a mere Prime Minister …

Also the idea of “First Among Equals” has a nice ring to it and even some truth to it … it is not the fullness of Peters role … and rings hollow in many ways.

There are many early writings that make reference to the Chair of Peter [much like the Seat of Moses and this Prime Minister in the Davidic Kingdom] and in one early writing it is even asked if one is not in accord with the Barque of Peter can one have assurance one is still Christian [forgive me - I recently moved so I cannot look up the exact reference] … but there are many and people disagree … me I take the common man approach - sometimes the simplest explanations is the truth and dancing around all that is nuanced … If the Apostles - who heard Jesus speak in the flesh and were present between the Resurrection and Pentecost needed a leader - singular in Peter … then how much more do we need a leader 2000 years later …

Then I looked at the heresies and where they initiated … that is to big a topic especially as I don’t have access to my reference materials … but many originated in the eastern Church.

Now in practice it is the Bishops with the Pope who lead the Church and its rare that the Pope makes a unilateral decision - thus it is in practice that the Pope is the First Among Equals … but I like the way that it is expressed in the West much better - the Pope is the “Servant of the Servants of God” which is really how I have seen it operate in my lifetime … And I trust the promise Jesus made to Peter that the gates of hell would not prevail over His Church.

I really love the Didache its a wonderfully written document and we are blessed it survived

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Now in practice it is the Bishops with the Pope who lead the Church and its rare that the Pope makes a unilateral decision - thus it is in practice that the Pope is the First Among Equals … but I like the way that it is expressed in the West much better - the Pope is the “Servant of the Servants of God” which is really how I have seen it operate in my lifetime … And I trust the promise Jesus made to Peter that the gates of hell would not prevail over His Church.

I really love the Didache its a wonderfully written document and we are blessed it survived

This is not correct at all. The Bishop of Rome is not first among equals. He is head of the College of Bishops. While the College may act only with and under the head of the college, the head of the college is always free to act unilaterally.

*Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.

Can. 332 §1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

§2. If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.

Can. 333 §1. By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only possesses power over the universal Church but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power over all particular churches and groups of them. Moreover, this primacy strengthens and protects the proper, ordinary, and immediate power which bishops possess in the particular churches entrusted to their care.

§2. In fulfilling the office of supreme pastor of the Church, the Roman Pontiff is always joined in communion with the other bishops and with the universal Church. He nevertheless has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, whether personal or collegial, of exercising this office.

§3. No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.*

 

[Don_Ruggero]

That is why I wanted to know a why and when, perhaps there is some document that explains the changes in regards to the praxis in the west.

First, many posters are not making the appropriate distinction between the discipline of fast and the discipline of abstinence. They are not synonymous even if they are conjoined in certain observances.

The present penitential practices are well explained by the Blessed Pope Paul VI in Paenitemini

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19660217_paenitemini.html

The Bishops of the United States issued the norms which were granted recognitio by the Holy See that are dispositive for those who are canonical subjects of an American bishop, presuming no subsequent amendment by particular law.

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-year/lent/us-bishops-pastoral-statement-on-penance-and-abstinence.cfm

 

[YADA]

This is not correct at all. The Bishop of Rome is not first among equals. He is head of the College of Bishops. While the College may act only with and under the head of the college, the head of the college is always free to act unilaterally.

Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.

Can. 332 §1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

§2. If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.

Can. 333 §1. By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only possesses power over the universal Church but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power over all particular churches and groups of them. Moreover, this primacy strengthens and protects the proper, ordinary, and immediate power which bishops possess in the particular churches entrusted to their care.

§2. In fulfilling the office of supreme pastor of the Church, the Roman Pontiff is always joined in communion with the other bishops and with the universal Church. He nevertheless has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, whether personal or collegial, of exercising this office.

§3. No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

When I was answering a question at RCIA once - when I was finished my priest looked at the person and said that was the Masters in Theology Degree answer - this is the ordinary mans …

So yes … I get that - go ahead and castigate me for not cutting and pasting . the Catechism. The Pope is also the first among equals - the Church operates with a pretty flat organizational structure and I was writing a treatise on the catechism - this was a discussion - common language … I clearly - I hope stated one person has to be at the head - as a successor to Peter - to make a final decision when necessary and then emphasized his common role as a bishop in addition to being the pope -

.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

When I was answering a question at RCIA once - when I was finished my priest looked at the person and said that was the Masters in Theology Degree answer - this is the ordinary mans …

So yes … I get that - go ahead and castigate me for not cutting and pasting . the Catechism. The Pope is also the first among equals - the Church operates with a pretty flat organizational structure and I was writing a treatise on the catechism - this was a discussion - common language … I clearly - I hope stated one person has to be at the head - as a successor to Peter - to make a final decision when necessary and then emphasized his common role as a bishop in addition to being the pope -

.

This is not The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

This is the Code of Canon Law.

To be first among equals is to have a jurisdiction much inferior to the Pope’s who, personally and individually, has supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church.

 

[YADA]

This is not The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

This is the Code of Canon Law.

To be first among equals is to have a jurisdiction much inferior to the Pope’s who, personally and individually, has supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church.

I was using the Orthodox term for the Pope and trying to illustrate that it was not adequate - even if you cant see that … just quoting the Canon or Catechism was not the venue I intended to use … I was meeting the person where they were … sheesh …

The Pope has many titles - that is one that I see as being valid but not complete and I explained why. I also noted that we use a similar title - the Servant of the Servants of God that is similar but expresses that Charism better … the technical aspect of the papacy as you quoted was not where I wanted a casual conversation on why the Pope was not mentioned in the Didache and why that might lead one to Orthodoxy …

 

[Jesus_123]

I know that fasting has almost been eradicated in the west since the second Vatican council, besides for traditional Catholics that keep the ancient Friday fast, but what about the Wednesday fasts?

Ever since reading the Didache I was shocked to learn that ever since the first century Christians were fasting every Wednesday and Friday. I have kept both the Friday, Wednesday, Advent and Lenten fast since learning this, yet I know very few even amongst traditional Catholics that keep those practices.
omehow both the Advent fast(Saint Martin’s lent) and the Wednesday fast have disappeared form the West, why?

The only Christian “denomination” that still does this practice as the ancient Christians are the Orthodox, but it was not always like that.

The West also had a Wednesday fast as evidenced in the Gaelic language where Thursday is known as the day between fasts.

I cannot find any formal declaration of it being removed from the practice of the faithful, the same way as the Friday was removed by Vatican 2.

Does anybody know why and when the Wednesday fast and the Advent fast was removed from the west?

. . . :bible1: . . .
Thus saith the
LORD:
Stand ye on the ways, and see and ask for the
old paths
which is the good way, and walk ye in it: and
you shall find refreshment for your souls …
- Jeremiah 6:16
+Don’t worry Omaestre . . . the holy prayerful practice of Wednesday fasting . . . companioning right along with the holy Friday fasting practice . . . in many of God’s children’s lives within the Catholic Church is . . . very much . . . alive and well . . . initiated, blest and guided by the . . . Sweet Spirit of Our Lord . . . and by the . . . **grace of God **. . . we keep and practice this . . . quiet . . . blest . . . voluntary discipline as a . . . holy pathway . . . for our soul’s service and obedience to and in our Loving Lord . . . *under the protective mantle of Our Lady . . . *

Within our prayer circle . . . and with many devout Catholic souls we have discovered throughout the world . . . east and west . . . this has become a consistent . . . blest . . . quiet . . . normal . . . weekly discipline of our spiritual life in Christ . . . and has been for years and years . . . and by God’s grace shall continue to be for years to come . . . and outside our immediate church circle . . . we have discovered so many of us completely consecrated to Our Lady in particular . . . who have quietly embraced this personal devotion . . .

The . . . holy mystery . . . of Wednesday fasting is a . . . very real . . . spiritual blessing . . . that is like a sweet . . . deep . . . hidden . . . **river of heavenly light and holy blessing **. . . that has been . . . in deep holy stillness . . . flowing down through the centuries of Christendom . . . and which is . . . profoundly . . . alive and well today . . . in many of our lives . . . mine included . . .

Mother Angelica often spoke . . . with great sadness and concern . . . about how so many of the holy practices of old . . . that help us grow in our Catholic faith and closer to our . . . Wonderful Lord . . . have simply been rapidly . . . disappearing . . . from our churches and Catholic practices . . . emptying the Christ’s holy churches . . . of holy crucifixes . . . holy reminders . . . holy statues . . . dispensing with regular community and personal Holy Rosary and traditional prayers . . . holy novenas . . . holy processions . . . holy litany prayers . . . emphasizing holy days . . . holy fasting . . . *and the list goes on . . . and on . . . and on . . . *

God’s sweetest blessings as you prayerfully continue to seek the abundant graces, gifts and blessings our . . . Wonderful Lord . . . has for your life and work in Him . . .

*In dedication to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . praise God from Whom ALL Blessings Flow+
:harp:​

 

[e_c]

1. True, but I think this refers to adult baptism, children and especially babies were not to fast. I don’t know if priests fast before the sacrament of baptism, I do however know that prior to Vatican 2 there was a fast before mass, and if the baptism happened in conjunction with a mass there everyone would already be fasting.
2. Giving thanks, I presume is either in conjunction with liturgy which I believe the priest does express, and the laity that return to their pews probably pray silently. The words of the exact prayer may not be the same, but the act of thanksgiving is still preserved. Point 7 even recommends that followers allow their priests to give thanks in manner they find fitting.
3. I don’t see how this is not still church teaching, almost every homily is about our duty to help those in need, to love our neighbour and here to give shelter to those who wander. Granted not many travel by foot seeking shelter, but surely this can be interpreted as helping strangers in need of shelter like refugees.
   ** Or else I misunderstand you and what you think has changed.**

There has been a misunderstanding, and some shifting of goalposts.

If you think that changing the discipline of the fast (or of abstinence) or of any kind of penance somehow negates the presence of the fullness of the truth - which is what it seems like you are implying, though I could be wrong - then if you apply the same standard with the same rigor to other features of the Didache, you will not find a “true Church.”

Watch:

1. Any deviation from what is laid down in the Didache means that that Church is not the true Church.
2. The Didache imposes abstinence on Wednesdays.
3. The Catholic Church doesn’t impose abstinence on Wednesdays.
4. Therefore, the Catholic Church is not the true Church.
5. “”
6. The Didache imposes that the following prayer be said after receiving the Eucharist: “etc.”

OR

1. The Didache imposes the discipline of fasting for the baptizer and the baptized (supposing the age or health is not a factor).

OR

1. The Didache imposes that a community of believers welcomes travelers only up to 3 days and then must send them away.
2. There is no Church which imposes xyz.
3. Therefore, there is no true Church.

It is just a discipline. The current Code overrules all that has gone before. And the universality of canon law has grown throughout the ages… In general, the earlier a law is, the less likely it is to be binding in all places.