The difference between free love and SSM debates

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I’m not a baby boomer, but I’m old enough to remember a bit of the sexual revolution of the sixties/seventies.

Here’s something I’ve noticed.

You would have a group of people. Some would be into free love/premarital sex, some believing in waiting until marriage. They would debate back and forth. They would all make their own decisions and act accordingly. They would still REMAIN FRIENDS. The free love types would sometimes tease the ones who waited, but it was good natured. I saw this with my own eyes.

A girl in our group got pregnant in college (unmarried), and her best friend and frequent babysitter was a girl who waited to have sex until she was married. This was not weird.

Nowadays, agreeing to the moral validity of gay sexual activity has become a litmus test in many circles to be considered as a friend. It’s also a litmus test to make you an acceptable target for exclusion and hate, if you don’t agree with it.

Where’s the debate? Where’s the tolerance for opposing viewpoints? I would even accept some good-natured teasing.

Just an observation.
 
I’m not a baby boomer, but I’m old enough to remember a bit of the sexual revolution of the sixties/seventies.

Here’s something I’ve noticed.

You would have a group of people. Some would be into free love/premarital sex, some believing in waiting until marriage. They would debate back and forth. They would all make their own decisions and act accordingly. They would still REMAIN FRIENDS. The free love types would sometimes tease the ones who waited, but it was good natured. I saw this with my own eyes.

A girl in our group got pregnant in college (unmarried), and her best friend and frequent babysitter was a girl who waited to have sex until she was married. This was not weird.

Nowadays, agreeing to the moral validity of gay sexual activity has become a litmus test in many circles to be considered as a friend. It’s also a litmus test to make you an acceptable target for exclusion and hate, if you don’t agree with it.

Where’s the debate? Where’s the tolerance for opposing viewpoints? I would even accept some good-natured teasing.

Just an observation.
I agree. It seems not enough today that people simply agree to disagree, and live in tolerance of differing viewpoints. Now, it seems that one must adapt his or her thinking to the “new normal” or be considered “backwards” at best, or homophobic at worst.

Peace,
Robert
 
I AM a boomer , born in '53. I see the two situations as totally different - one is strictly a personal decision concerning only you and your boyfriend or girlfriend, while the debate about LGBTQ civil rights potentially affects huge numbers of people. :rolleyes:
 
Dear koslosap–

Okay, but here’s the thing. The LGBTQ narrative (I’m also old enough to remember when the narrative changed from “please don’t turn your back on us because we don’t want/DIDNT choose to be this way/would change if we could” to “agree with our POV or face punishment”) says they want to be treated the same as everybody else–no special treatment. If I’m allowed to make moral judgements about the validity of heterosexual activity, why am I required to suspend all moral judgement, and independent thinking and questioning about homosexual activities?

That sounds a lot like special treatment. It also sounds a lot like mind control.

And as for the legal benefits of marriage question, you can coose anybody you like to be your power of attorney for health care, etc, to designate anybody you like as your next of kin, to bequeath your possessions to anybody you choose. You have to write up legal documents, but if you really care about the person, you’ll put the effort into doing this
 
I’m not a baby boomer, but I’m old enough to remember a bit of the sexual revolution of the sixties/seventies.

Here’s something I’ve noticed.

You would have a group of people. Some would be into free love/premarital sex, some believing in waiting until marriage. They would debate back and forth. They would all make their own decisions and act accordingly. They would still REMAIN FRIENDS. The free love types would sometimes tease the ones who waited, but it was good natured. I saw this with my own eyes.

A girl in our group got pregnant in college (unmarried), and her best friend and frequent babysitter was a girl who waited to have sex until she was married. This was not weird.

Nowadays, agreeing to the moral validity of gay sexual activity has become a litmus test in many circles to be considered as a friend. It’s also a litmus test to make you an acceptable target for exclusion and hate, if you don’t agree with it.

Where’s the debate? Where’s the tolerance for opposing viewpoints? I would even accept some good-natured teasing.

Just an observation.
It’s a long story, but to start:
  1. The opposition to so-called gay “marriage” has been pathetic and widely misunderstood. Unfortunately, it’s been many non-Catholic Christians who’ve been running around the last 10 years saying that homosexual actions are not acceptable because the Bible says so, end of discussion!
I mean, that won’t even work on premarital sex or contraception. Then there’s the whole debacle about how being GLBTQ is a one way ticket to hell and homosexuality is always a choice. :rolleyes: It’s impossible to have a conversation with folks on either side of that because of their agenda and ignorance and natural law.

Between natural law and secular arguments, which Adam Kolasinski outlined in a 2004 editorial "The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage", these arguments, at the forefront, counter every single claim against traditional marriage or that straight and gay marriage can be the same.

People just felt that there were no good counterarguments, when they were staring all of us right in the face!
  1. The Catholic Church was not out in front of this. I remember my Mom saying that while the culture was decaying all around them, they were making “Jesus Loves Me” posters in CCD, instead of learning the finer points of countering the counterculture. If we were on guard and more watchful, we could have sheparded more GLBTQ persons BEFORE the gay “marriage” movement got momentum.
As a younger person, I first thought this came out of nowhere, But the reality is it has been around for years, and I think polling on the issue goes back even to the 70s.
  1. So-called gay “marriage” is not borne out of civil rights. The comparison is understandably insulting to many American minorities, especially Blacks. The fact is during civil rights movements, people were in many cases (black, white, man and woman) were risking prison sentences and even their lives. The only reason there are so many gay “marriage” activists is because it’s now safe to come out and be one.
Today, being for so-called gay “marriage” makes one “like, the coolest like person evah!” :rolleyes: You’re much more at risk if you oppose it, and there’s no telling far that’s going to go. Some Christians are literally preparing for martyrdom over this.

Being for so-called gay “marriage” today is a very safe, easy, comfortable existence, but in typical progressive fashion, the activists are going to play the oppressed minority victim. What is scary is that it won’t change once they become the majority. They’ll still portray themselves as oppressed and sad in need of government help, even if every single state makes it and refusing them services illegal. There’s too many people who think if they are just given everything they ask for, they’ll hush up and go their merry way.

But as we can see with bakers and florists, that just ain’t so.

Trouble is that homosexual relationships are not stable. The numbers and stats on that do not lie. And of course, those research that come under fire because it’s a major dent in their agenda, and I think they know it. It’ll be interesting to see how long they can keep suppressing the truth and making excuses for it.

As I said, this isn’t about equality or civil rights, its about entitlements, looking and feeling good in front of people who are different and look for hidden personal gain. They think in many cases they’ve found a way to beat the system, that they can have all the worldly accolades and adoration and be on par with Mother Teresa. :rolleyes:

So-called gay “marriage” has come out of the entitlement mentality, and mainly for political purposes and for those looking to make selfish gains, who predictably market themselves as fighting for a righteous cause. (Keeping moral relativism in mind, ISIS is doing the same thing…)

Just ask any gay rights advocate why Muslim bakeries who refuse service to gay “weddings” are left alone. Ishii posted that on the News Forums and it was almost entirely ignored. A true rights movement wouldn’t stand for it, especially if equality were such a virtue, there would be no exceptions, but as it is stands, they know they can’t afford to alienate the power base of various politicians in the West.

So what we need to do is see the situation for what it is and get back to the basics of natural law.

That means bucking the mentality that is about equality, that marriage for all is a Constitutional right, that there are no secular, state interest or natural law arguments against so-called gay “marriage” and that we have to keep pounding “because the Old Testament says so”.

It also means going against family members and friends who take the easy road out and support it.
 
I AM a boomer , born in '53. I see the two situations as totally different - one is strictly a personal decision concerning only you and your boyfriend or girlfriend, while the debate about LGBTQ civil rights potentially affects huge numbers of people. :rolleyes:
So which is it?

Either GLBTQ persons are this small, tiny repressed minority not worth the trouble, or they are this giant influence with “huge numbers” as you say.

You can’t have both.
 
It is a tough nut to crack! No one cares what the vast 97% of humans do in the privacy of their bedrooms because they are straight, but if you are LGBTQ then it seems like some groups want to control your existence.:eek:
 
It is a tough nut to crack! No one cares what the vast 97% of humans do in the privacy of their bedrooms because they are straight, but if you are LGBTQ then it seems like some groups want to control your existence.:eek:
So, why did it come out of the bedroom?

If it had stayed in the bedroom, there would be little, if any, debate.
 
Dear SuperLuigi–you don’t have to tell me what catechesis was apt to be in the seventies…I was one of those kids making felt banners LOL.

I guess it just disturbs me that straight people can disagree about sex and remain friends , but gay activists see any opposition as hate. Homosexuality was removed from the DSM years ago, but there are a lot of psychiatric conditions where the inability to see another point of view is actually a symptom of immaturity or pathology, particularly the borderline personality disorders.
 
Dear SuperLuigi–you don’t have to tell me what catechesis was apt to be in the seventies…I was one of those kids making felt banners LOL.

:doh2:
I guess it just disturbs me that straight people can disagree about sex and remain friends , but gay activists see any opposition as hate. Homosexuality was removed from the DSM years ago, but there are a lot of psychiatric conditions where the inability to see another point of view is actually a symptom of immaturity or pathology, particularly the borderline personality disorders.
 
It is a tough nut to crack! No one cares what the vast 97% of humans do in the privacy of their bedrooms because they are straight, but if you are LGBTQ then it seems like some groups want to control your existence.:eek:
Gay activism is what has brought this to the forefront. Not content to live their lives in privacy, they insist on giving the rest of us TMI in an attempt to change the values of society. Quite honestly, I have no need to know if you are gay. You may share with your confessor, your family and your closest friends, but of course keeping it within the normal boundaries of acceptable social behavior does nothing to actually convince society that homosexuality is **normal. **
 
Gay activism is what has brought this to the forefront.
An alternate explanation of what brought “this” to the forefront is that while the discussion of gay marriage dates back 40 years, that 10 years ago no gay activist was predicting the sudden reversal in LGBT acceptance. I can remember back in the 1990s when my mail box was swamped with “in your face” anti-gay political opinions and ads. Unless you subscribe to particular anti-gay blogs you won’t see much blatant anti-gay discourse. What happened? Social scientists attribute the reversal in acceptance to more and more gays coming out to their families, friends, churches and neighbors. My take: being gay is no longer considered anathema by the majority. Both sides of the gay marriage as a civil right issue have legitimate arguments in their favor. These rights will be decided by the Supreme Court later this month. In getting to SC. there are actors on both sides who acted nobly and others that were basically out of control.
 
One aspect of this is that many (most?) Christians have largely capitulated to the sexual revolution, from which the gay rights agenda grew as an integral part of it. One no longer finds Christians marching against cohabitation, divorce, contraception, serial monogamy. Sexual license for everybody. Do whatever you please. But at same sex marriage, many balk, not realizing they have already capitulated. Once contraception is accepted, the rest of the sexual revolution follows, including same sex marriage.

“It is as if we are saying, “We like the Sexual Revolution just fine: we just don’t like the Gay Parts.”

Sorry. Too late.
 
Dear frobert–I don’t know where you live, and maybe that’s the difference–I live in a major metropolitan area, and as early as the 90s I was hearing/seeing major pushback from gay rights activists at any hint gay sex might be morally or even for health reasons problematic. I had out-and -proud gay co workers.

I’ve never met an Wesboro Baptist Church style gay basher in my entire life. The people I know who oppose gay sex are actually pretty mild about it. Don’t believe in gay marriage, and at the same time get very angry at gay-targeted crime and discrimination.

I can say I saw this live-and-let-live attitude being the most prevalent attitude even as far back as the 80s, when I first understood the concept of homosexuality. The worst I saw tended to be among teenage boys who would skeeve at the idea of gay activity. But teenagers are trying to figure out their place in the world, anyway and are massively insecure.

Even my most ultra-conservative, gun-toting, prepper, young-Earth creationist Evangelical friend firmly believes that if a homosexual accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and savior and makes their best effort to avoid this sin and repents when they do fall, will be saved.

I guess I just saw one too many messages about how Christians all want gays to rot in Hell and lost my cool and that’s why I originally posted. Having a grumpy day about being misrepresented…
 
And as for the legal benefits of marriage question, you can coose anybody you like to be your power of attorney for health care, etc, to designate anybody you like as your next of kin, to bequeath your possessions to anybody you choose. You have to write up legal documents, but if you really care about the person, you’ll put the effort into doing this
It’s really not as simple as writing up a bunch of legal documents and having everything be the same as it would be for married spouses. For example, a person can transfer money and real estate to their spouse with no tax penalties. But if a man does the same to his same-sex partner, gift taxes would apply. Also, in California, a person can transfer property to their spouse (including through their will) without the property being reassessed. This is not possible between unmarried, same-sex partners and the property would be reassessed which would probably significantly raise the property taxes. If a person’s spouse dies and that spouse’s social security is higher, the survivor can receive the spouse’s higher social security payments. This would not be possible between unmarried same-sex partners. These are only just a few of the differences that cannot be rectified by writing up legal documents.
 
Dear thorolfr–
Tax laws can be changed–I’m all for people paying less taxes than more LOL!–without changing the definition of marriage.

But that wasn’t the point of my original question–why gay activists are utterly unable to tolerate questions and free thought.
 
Dear thorolfr–
Tax laws can be changed–I’m all for people paying less taxes than more LOL!–without changing the definition of marriage.

But that wasn’t the point of my original question–why gay activists are utterly unable to tolerate questions and free thought.
IMO, this is problem isn’t specific to gay activists. In fact, plenty of traditional/conservative people do it too, the other way around. Some people need there to be a “bad guy”. I’m no shrink, but I’m assuming there’s tons of literature about sociological scapegoating. But I do know that there are no “bad guys”. All of us are sinners, and all of us are made in the image and likeness of God. We have to see each other for what we are - both wounded, and deserving of love. IMO, the best way to address the problem is to lovingly keep trying to reveal goodness.
 
Havard–I teach my kids that there aren’t good people and bad people, but good actions and bad actions.
 
Havard–I teach my kids that there aren’t good people and bad people, but good actions and bad actions.
Exactly! And I’m sure you wouldn’t mind being thought of as misguided by these folks. That’s fair game when people disagree. But when you’re a person of goodwill, which I am sure you are, it hurts when people imply that you’re lacking in goodwill altogether. It especially hurts when it comes from a friend, and it’s not remotely based in reality. I’m sorry if this is happening to you. 😦
 
I’m not a baby boomer, but I’m old enough to remember a bit of the sexual revolution of the sixties/seventies.

Here’s something I’ve noticed.

You would have a group of people. Some would be into free love/premarital sex, some believing in waiting until marriage. They would debate back and forth. They would all make their own decisions and act accordingly. They would still REMAIN FRIENDS. The free love types would sometimes tease the ones who waited, but it was good natured. I saw this with my own eyes.

A girl in our group got pregnant in college (unmarried), and her best friend and frequent babysitter was a girl who waited to have sex until she was married. This was not weird.

Nowadays, agreeing to the moral validity of gay sexual activity has become a litmus test in many circles to be considered as a friend. It’s also a litmus test to make you an acceptable target for exclusion and hate, if you don’t agree with it.

Where’s the debate? Where’s the tolerance for opposing viewpoints? I would even accept some good-natured teasing.

Just an observation.
Yes. I think it’s important for our side to see what is going on here. So many of us still don’t even know what hit us on this homosexuality issue.

There really is no debate anymore. As in, a fair and respectful hearing of both sides.

Do you remember when Reagan got elected? All through the 80’s the liberals were terrified because they could not seem to win a debate (or an election) for a number of years.

They figured something out that our side hasn’t: fair and respectful debate does not lead to liberal victory, therefore they have found ways around that. They have “won” the debate by dominating the media and cultural presentation, all based on perception over substance, and feeling over reason.

That’s my take. I don’t have the answer. But I feel we never will get the answer if we don’t even understand how we got to where we are now.
 
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