The Disposition of Scripture Regarding Those in Heaven

[losh14]

This is an exploratory thread.
Assume that we may only use Scripture as a basis for evidence. What is the disposition of Scripture regarding those we call Saints - humans whose earthly life has ended but who belong to the Lord?

The reason for this assumption is arbitrary - we’re not assuming a sola scriptura rationale, only setting the field.

Specifically:

1. What is the nature of will in Heaven?
2. Do the Saints pray?
3. If so, what do they pray for?
4. May we ask them to pray for us?
5. What is the proper intent and form of remembering, honoring or venerating them?

 

[crazzeto]

Mainly want to get subscribed to this thread so I can come back to it later, as I don’t have time to respond right now. Thanks for opening up this seperate thread

 

[crazzeto]

First and foremost, we need to have a conversation about this belief that only scripture may be used to define what a Christian believes in. If that were the case, then you should also reject the Trinaty.

This is an exploratory thread.
Assume that we may only use Scripture as a basis for evidence. What is the disposition of Scripture regarding those we call Saints - humans whose earthly life has ended but who belong to the Lord?

The reason for this assumption is arbitrary - we’re not assuming a sola scriptura rationale, only setting the field.

Specifically:

1. What is the nature of will in Heaven?

Could you be more specific?

1. Do the Saints pray?

Most emphatically yes,

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

1. If so, what do they pray for?

Us, here on earth as they have no need to pray for them selves. Maybe the poor souls in purgatory?

1. May we ask them to pray for us?

Certainly, we are members of the body of Christ! As such we can most certainly communicate with those who have passed. The first passage of scripture to meditate on is the very one Paul would meditate on from his conversion for the remainder of his life:

Act 9:4 And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Consider next Jesus’s parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. And no one did give him: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
Luk 16:23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom:
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither.
Luk 16:27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren,
Luk 16:28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
Luk 16:29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
Luk 16:31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

1. What is the proper intent and form of remembering, honoring or venerating them?

You ask them to pray for you, and venerate them for their great achievement as Christians, obtaining the uncorruptable crown! Think of it this way, in what way do you show proper respect to the President of the USA? Why would you show someone any less respect than that for making it straight to heaven?

 

[losh14]

First and foremost, we need to have a conversation about this belief that only scripture may be used to define what a Christian believes in.

I agree but I think that should be another thread. In conversations with non-Catholic Christians, one of the major obstacles to their understanding our position is that they will only accept what is in Scripture as proof. Granted, some will say “I believe in Scripture” but in reality it’s “I believe in my own understanding of Scripture”, but the first obstacle becomes either setting the case for the validity of extra-scriptural revelation or making the argument entirely from Scripture.

This thread is only the latter approach. The former should be made as well, but the latter has more immediate appeal for the non-Catholic.

Besides, we as apologists should be able to explain, defend and refute Scripture.

If that were the case, then you should also reject the Trinity. (sic)

Or embrace only a very vague notion of it - ie, “Jesus is with the Father and the Spirit”. What does that mean - are they at a party together or in a taxi? What is the nature of the relationship between them - indeed is Jesus eternal or is He part of Creation? etc. Yes, many of the most important doctrinal questions were not fully defined in writing until later because they were only questioned later.

Could you be more specific?

Regarding will, yes. Do humans in Heaven retain their free will? Sorry, that would’ve been clearer in the first place.

Related to your response on Paul’s conversion, I recall there existing a passage in Scripture where Paul essentially says “I could do more for you in Heaven than I could in the flesh.” I’m having trouble finding it - is it familiar to you?

You ask them to pray for you, and venerate them for their great achievement as Christians, obtaining the uncorruptable crown!

What do we know about the history of devotional practice? What is the earliest document that attests to it and its rationale - bearing in mind that little survives of early Christianity, of course, and so absence of documentation does not mean absence of existence.