The Divorce of Fatih & Reason

[2perfection]

Topher:

But that does not change the fact that they are wrong.

such a good answer.

a thought. Why is faith divorced from reason, why do people believe unreasonable things?

Who told you they were unreasonable?

Because over the last 3000 years we have become aware of slips in logic, straw-man arguments, the perils of different frame of reference, context switches, double-standanrds, and the like. On top of logical fallacies we are also aware of a large body of method and analysis that successfully manage the material world and slowly reduce the space for divine actions.

The net combination of this is that theistic beliefs become less and less tenable in a rational, testable world.

In the face of this, theistic beliefs appear unreasonable.

 

[fix]

2perfection:

such a good answer.

a thought. Why is faith divorced from reason, why do people believe unreasonable things?

Who told you they were unreasonable?

Because over the last 3000 years we have become aware of slips in logic, straw-man arguments, the perils of different frame of reference, context switches, double-standanrds, and the like. On top of logical fallacies we are also aware of a large body of method and analysis that successfully manage the material world and slowly reduce the space for divine actions.

The net combination of this is that theistic beliefs become less and less tenable in a rational, testable world.

In the face of this, theistic beliefs appear unreasonable.

Sundered from that truth, individuals are at the mercy of caprice, and their state as person ends up being judged by pragmatic criteria based essentially upon experimental data, in the mistaken belief that technology must dominate all. It has happened therefore that reason, rather than voicing the human orientation towards truth, has wilted under the weight of so much knowledge and little by little has lost the capacity to lift its gaze to the heights, not daring to rise to the truth of being. Abandoning the investigation of being, modern philosophical research has concentrated instead upon human knowing. Rather than make use of the human capacity to know the truth, modern philosophy has preferred to accentuate the ways in which this capacity is limited and conditioned.

This has given rise to different forms of agnosticism and relativism which have led philosophical research to lose its way in the shifting sands of widespread scepticism. Recent times have seen the rise to prominence of various doctrines which tend to devalue even the truths which had been judged certain. A legitimate plurality of positions has yielded to an undifferentiated pluralism, based upon the assumption that all positions are equally valid, which is one of today’s most widespread symptoms of the lack of confidence in truth.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

 

[stanley123]

Topher:

But that does not change the fact that they are wrong.

The point is that it has not been proven to them that it is a reasonable teaching. But I would guess that if it involved a question in mathematics, that they would see a validly proven result as reasonable.

 

[2perfection]

fix:

Sundered from that truth, individuals are at the mercy of caprice, and their state as person ends up being judged by pragmatic criteria based essentially upon experimental data,

But, experimental data is not capricious is it? It produces patterns, and those produce theories, and those produce hypothesies, and those produce more experimentents. And if the theory is right, the results are predictable. No caprice there.

Gravity always falls off at an inverse ratio, hydrogen and oxygen burn to produce water, any other pattern means we could make water out of silicon, carbon or anything else.

Compare to the caprice of changing doctrine, different religions, hersey within religion, and so on.

An unfortunate turn of phrase…but one that clearly shows the bridge between theism and reason. The conflation of ‘caprice’ with one of the least caricious methods ever known simply demonstrates the divorce from reason is intrinsic to faith.

rather than voicing the human orientation towards truth, has wilted under the weight of so much knowledge and little by little has lost the capacity to lift its gaze to the heights,

Anti-knowledge, anti-evidence, anti-learning, anti-intelligence. Never before have so many people seen so far, and worked to counter the bad things in the world. Who ever heard of a 2 million people march against a war? Evolution, a grand sweeping vision of life…denied and lied about…

it makes me shudder to read these words, it reminds me of how controlable an uninformed group are.

As for

Recent times have seen the rise to prominence of various doctrines which tend to devalue even the truths which had been judged certain.

There you have it. “we have and had perfection, how dare you examine our reasoning and question our judgement”

The absolute divorce of reason and faith.

Reason has gone because you your faith cant accomodate examination and new facts.

 

[Topher]

stanley123:

The point is that it has not been proven to them that it is a reasonable teaching. But I would guess that if it involved a question in mathematics, that they would see a validly proven result as reasonable.

It has been proven to them, they simply don’t accept it and there are two reasons why they refuse to see it. First, they may be blinded by cultural biases. This is very prevelanent today. Second, the may be dishonest with themselves. And this can be for a whole host of reasons. One, they do not want to accept the challenging nature of the Catholic life. Two, they may not want risk the ridicule that an intellectual faces from the liberal academic establishment when they accept the clear truth of the Catholic faith. Three, they may just be too prideful to submitt to that which they have ridiculed all of their life. Regardless of what they think or feel, anything that the Church proposes for belief must be reasonable. If it is not, the Chruch rejects it. To believe otherwise is heresy.

 

[Topher]

2perfection:

Reason has gone because you your faith cant accomodate examination and new facts.

Wrong. The reason I am Catholic is that being a reasonable person, it cannot be avoided. The Catholic faith is the only faith in the world that can support its propostions with reason. In fact, the Catholic faith is the only faith in the world that is rationally inescapable.

 

[stanley123]

Topher:

The Catholic faith is the only faith in the world that can support its propostions with reason. In fact, the Catholic faith is the only faith in the world that is rationally inescapable.

Let’s take a look at some of the teachings that St. Thomas Aquinas and see if they were reasonable. Do you agree that the following teachings can be proven by reasonable arguments? If not, why do you disagree with St. Thomas:

1. There is a purgatorial fire. Catholics today accept that there is a punishment in purgatory, but do not generally accept the teaching of St. Thomas that the punishment in Purgaory is by a real fire.
2. There is a Limbo.
3. A master has the right to strike his slave. In the USA, it is against the law for a master to strike his slave. If this is reasonable, then why is it against the law everywhere in the USA? And it is also against the law and a punishable crime in Canada and other countries as well.

 

[2perfection]

Topher:

Wrong. The reason I am Catholic is that being a reasonable person, it cannot be avoided. The Catholic faith is the only faith in the world that can support its propostions with reason. In fact, the Catholic faith is the only faith in the world that is rationally inescapable.

Well…that’s doubtful as no religion has yet proven the existance of god, and everything collapses at that point. i have a godometer, but it only goes off when pointed at me, which leads me to suspect its broken.

And it does keep asserting ANDs when we are clearly dealing with ORs.

Oh, and other assumptions keep failing, like the assertion we all have the same resources to resist sin.

if you take the untestable assertions as fact…then thats OK

 

[stanley123]

2perfection:

Well…that’s doubtful as no religion has yet proven the existance of god, and everything collapses at that point.

Hello:
Welcome to the Catholic Answers. I hope you will stay and present us with some difficult questions.
I would like to ask you if you really think it is reasonable to say that our minds and abilities and our consicousness have evolved from inert dirt? To say that the Pythagorean theorem and our knowledge of the gravitational laws have evolved from inert dirt seems a bit of a stretch. Does dirt at all know anything about what is going around it? Can plain dirt see or feel or think about anything?

 

[fix]

2perfection:

But, experimental data is not capricious is it? It produces patterns, and those produce theories, and those produce hypothesies, and those produce more experimentents. And if the theory is right, the results are predictable. No caprice there.

Gravity always falls off at an inverse ratio, hydrogen and oxygen burn to produce water, any other pattern means we could make water out of silicon, carbon or anything else.

Compare to the caprice of changing doctrine, different religions, hersey within religion, and so on.

An unfortunate turn of phrase…but one that clearly shows the bridge between theism and reason. The conflation of ‘caprice’ with one of the least caricious methods ever known simply demonstrates the divorce from reason is intrinsic to faith.

The Pope was not talking about physical science and physical laws. He is referring to moral truth.

Which soft science and plastic statistical methods will prove to us what truth is?

rather than voicing the human orientation towards truth, has wilted under the weight of so much knowledge and little by little has lost the capacity to lift its gaze to the heights,

Anti-knowledge, anti-evidence, anti-learning, anti-intelligence. Never before have so many people seen so far, and worked to counter the bad things in the world. Who ever heard of a 2 million people march against a war? Evolution, a grand sweeping vision of life…denied and lied about…

it makes me shudder to read these words, it reminds me of how controlable an uninformed group are.*

I shudder that folks reject authentic reason and truth and start their inquiries from a vantage point that rejects truth and embraces error masquerading as a science.

**

Recent times have seen the rise to prominence of various doctrines which tend to devalue even the truths which had been judged certain.

There you have it. “we have and had perfection, how dare you examine our reasoning and question our judgement”

The absolute divorce of reason and faith.

Reason has gone because you your faith cant accomodate examination and new facts.**

Huh? What facts? What facts contradict the eternal truth that the CC teaches?

 

[Topher]

stanley123:

Let’s take a look at some of the teachings that St. Thomas Aquinas and see if they were reasonable. Do you agree that the following teachings can be proven by reasonable arguments? If not, why do you disagree with St. Thomas:

1. There is a purgatorial fire. Catholics today accept that there is a punishment in purgatory, but do not generally accept the teaching of St. Thomas that the punishment in Purgaory is by a real fire.
2. There is a Limbo.
3. A master has the right to strike his slave. In the USA, it is against the law for a master to strike his slave. If this is reasonable, then why is it against the law everywhere in the USA? And it is also against the law and a punishable crime in Canada and other countries as well.

Most Catholics would then be wrong about purgatory now days. The Church has not gotten rid of limbo. It is still to be believed in. And a countries laws do not determine morality. God’s laws do.

 

[stanley123]

Topher:

Most Catholics would then be wrong about purgatory now days. .

Take a look at what Catholics here say about purgatorial fire:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=976702&postcount=46
or
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=976709&postcount=47

or
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=976961&postcount=64
or
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=979755&postcount=79
While they don’t deny it absolutely, they say that it is not dogma and does not have to be believed literally?

 

[Topher]

stanley123:

Take a look at what Catholics here say about purgatorial fire:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=976702&postcount=46
or
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=976709&postcount=47

or
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=976961&postcount=64
or
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=979755&postcount=79
While they don’t deny it absolutely, they say that it is not dogma and does not have to be believed literally?

Look, the final point is that there is pain and suffering purgatory. Thomas aquinas believed so and the Church teaches so.

 

[stanley123]

Topher:

Look, the final point is that there is pain and suffering purgatory. Thomas aquinas believed so and the Church teaches so.

Didn’t St. Thomas teach purgatorial fire? and so did Pope Gregory the Great? However, nowadays, many Catholics are saying that there may be pain and sufering in purgatory, but I don’t hear much being said about the existence of a real fire in purgatory. It was only the Pope, St. Thomas, a few other saints, and a book online at EWTN which mentions the existence of a real purgatorial fire.

 

[Topher]

stanley123:

Didn’t St. Thomas teach purgatorial fire? and so did Pope Gregory the Great? However, nowadays, many Catholics are saying that there may be pain and sufering in purgatory, but I don’t hear much being said about the existence of a real fire in purgatory. It was only the Pope, St. Thomas, a few other saints, and a book online at EWTN which mentions the existence of a real purgatorial fire.

Who cares about what modern Catholics say?
Let’s return to the teachings of the church.