The Ecumenical Orthodox?

[dzheremi]

There is probably something supernatural at work in the various Christian communions (at least the ones with significant historical presence, like Catholic, Orthodox…) which makes them work, wouldn’t you think?

Sure, why not. I don’t know what you mean by “work”, but certainly I think that God is truly present in the communions of the Apostolic churches that maintain their belief in the Eucharist.

You seem to give way too much credit to “knowing all the right things” as being able to accomplish so much unity throughout Church history.

That’s an odd accusation, as I’m not the one who wrote post #13 where you brought up the idea that some people, by virtue of their station in life, cannot understand their own faith. I’ve been talking about belief the whole time. Anyone who is literate can read a book. For the most of church history, many people were NOT literate, yet they were still orthodox, because of their belief in the faith as handed down from the apostles.

Yes, this would be the very type of person I had in mind who doesn’t (and couldn’t and won’t ever) know as much about his Orthodox faith as, say, some patriarch or prominent Orthodox theologian or an Orthodox priest.

And yet they are not any more or any less orthodox than any priest or other person, so what is your point?

But, who cares if the peasant won’t ever know as much (or even know all the right things)?

Apparently you do, since you brought it up.

his is the heart of my criticism of your remarks. You make it seem as if “knowing all the right things” (ie, being ‘orthodox’) is what it’s all about in Christianity.

This is your interpretation of my remarks, fed by your own presuppositions that I don’t necessarily share. Again, I’m talking about FAITH, not book learning or adhering to all of a million points of doctrine. As Nine_Two has pointed out to you, the Orthodox do not share the same sort of mania for dogma as the Catholic Church does. With respect, I think you’re looking at this from a very specific perspective that is making it difficult for you to appreciate the Orthodox on their own merits (which is all I’m trying to do, by the way; I myself am not Orthodox).

Like I said, among the four marks of the Church (one, holy, catholic, apostolic) I don’t see truth, or knowledgeable of the truth, in there anywhere.

Um…so something can be “holy” and false? The apostolic faith is not true? Then what’s the point of being in an apostolic communion to begin with? I would say that truth is not only implied in what is explicitly stated about the church, it lives in the church by virtue of the church’s holiness, catholicness, apostolicity, and all the rest. We don’t need a separate “fifth mark” to mention the truth or adherence to it, because it is in the church that is holy, catholic, apostolic, etc.

There seems to be a strong overemphasis on knowledge and truth in your understanding of what it means to be a Christian, and this is also, I must add (sorry), strongly parallel to American Evangelicalism.

That’s okay. No need to apologize for your opinion.

It is the furthest thing from being insulting. Do you honestly think everyone is an academic when it comes to religion?

No. Where did you this idea from anything I’ve posted? I don’t get it.

And yes, the very large numbers of people in such circumstances who are, as you said, the backbone of their respective religions should be enough to demonstrate to you that it is naive and unrealistic to think that all Orthodox Christians in this world are aware of all the same Orthodox teachings as an informed Orthodox would be. Hence, it is unlikely that assent to truth could be that which unifies Orthodox Christians.

Uh. Okay. I don’t know what conversation you’re having, but I think I’m going to bow out now and let the real Orthodox try to continue to explain things to you, because I’m out of ways to do so. I agree with Nine_Two. As long as you’re looking at Orthodoxy from a Roman Catholic perspective, it will not be easy to have this conversation.

 

[Magnanimity]

dzheremi,

I would just refer you to your post #10 in which you claimed that orthodoxy was the fundamental unifying principle of the Orthodox. And you not a few times mentioned truth and juxtaposed it with untruths, etc.

But, agreed, you and I are as ships passing in the night right now. No need to continue anymore back and forth when that’s the case. Best to you, and yes I do want to engage 9,2’s post. I found it insightful in many respects.