The effectiveness of prayers of petition

[MooCowSteph]

I’ve been pondering since I first read it. If God knows what’s going to happen for all eternity and our prayers make no difference, than why offer prayers of petition? Why do we attribute good things to prayer? Say, for example, a child has a terrible illness. Large numbers of people pray for this child to get better, and he does. People then attribute this to prayer, but in reality, wouldn’t he have gotten better even if no one prayed for him, since that was God’s will all along? After all, according to Fr. Serpa we can never change God’s mind.
Fr. Vincent Serpa:

No prayer changes God’s mind—ever. He has known what we need and what we think we need from all eternity. You are correct when you say that if you pray for something, and it is God’s will for it to happen, then it happens. But when He doesn’t answer us in the way we prefer, it is not just a matter of our prayer not matching up with His will. It is also the fact that what we are asking for is ultimately not for our own good—even though it seems so to us. But our prayer still has value because we have come to Him, trusting His love for us. And such trust is a form of love. When we love, we win. It is always the best thing for us and God always wants that.

When we pray for and with each other, we are adding other people’s love to the mix. This is what the Mystical Body of Christ is all about. It’s what the communion of saints is about. We are all related. It’s all a matter of love and it’s good. Hot dog!

 

[asquared]

on the contrary, praying for that person is a way of conforming our will to God’s will, it is an expression of faith in God’s judgement and action in this situation, for the person we are praying for.

 

[Arlene]

I have always wondered about this. In fact, I find it extremely difficult to pray prayers of petition. What does it matter to pray for what we want if God already has a plan and it may or may not be what we have prayed for.

The day my son died I never prayed for him not to die. I prayed for strength, faith, peace, submission to God’s will, courage, grace, and any number of things. But I never prayed for him not to die.

Sometimes I just don’t understand things…people pray for a safe journey. Maybe it’s God’s will for an accident to happen along the way. People pray for someone to get well. Maybe it is God’s will for them to die.

And really, I do understand that just because we don’t get what we ask for doesn’t mean God hasn’t heard or answered our prayers. Maybe his answer is different from the one we were asking for. Maybe He has a reason why the prayer will be answered in His time not ours. And I’m ok with that, which is why I pray for those other things.

This question has been bothering me for most of my life.

Arlene

 

[gardenswithkids]

MooCowSteph:

If God knows what’s going to happen for all eternity and our prayers make no difference, than why offer prayers of petition?

It’s a big leap to go from saying God knows what will happen to saying prayers make no difference. God knows what will happen including what prayers we will pray. I believe He takes those prayers into account and that they do make a difference, (even if our prayers aren’t always answered the way we want.) God is the Creator of time, and He is not bound by time. He can reach back through time to answer a prayer even before it’s prayed.

I once had a strange experience of saying a prayer as I walked to my mailbox and when I opened the mail, I found the answer to the very prayer I had just said. Obviously that letter was mailed a few days ahead, but nevertheless the answer did not reach me until I prayed.

Arlene, I am sorry about the loss of your son. That must have been difficult, and I hope you recieved the strength and all the other things you needed to get through that with grace.

 

[Forest-Pine]

I too see a difference between predestination and omnipotence. I equate it to parenting.

When I see a baby with a gleam in his eye heading toward the trash can, I know that he is about to topple it over. I call out to him and say, “No, sir. You can’t play with the trash,” before he ever does something wrong. He then gets to choose if he will listen to me or not. But I know my baby and I know that he is not yet ready to listen. He topples the trash.

Did I know in advance that he was about to do it? Yes.
Did I know he was going to do it before he even knew? Yes.
Did I predestine him to doing it? No.

I could have run over, swooped him up, and removed him from the kitchen before he toppled the trash. But then he would not have learned the concept of no, that I am in charge and know better than he does what is good for him, or the cause and effect of choosing to disobey. Sometimes it is necessary for me to intervene in a drastic manner. Sometimes it is better to let him learn. (Like when there are only banana peels and junk mail in the trash–instead of things more harmful.)

What does this have to do with predestination? I believe we are just like the babies. God knows us so well that he knows what we are going to do before we even know it ourselves. This just proves how very much he loves us. It does not mean that he has made the decision for us.

Sure, he could swoop down and pick up grown men and move them out of harm’s way. Why wouldn’t he if he had any mercy? Because sometimes it is important for us to learn the concept of no, that God is in charge and knows better than we do what is good for us, and the cause and effect of choosing to disobey.

I also do not believe that our petitions have no merit before God.

1. Matthew 15:22-28. The Canaanite woman who beseeches the Lord. He turns her down. She persists. He gives in.
2. John 2:1-11. The wedding at Cana. Mary asks Jesus to help out because there is no wine. He turns her down. She tells them to go on ahead and follow his directions. He relents and does his first public miracle.

It is our faith that is important.

1. Matthew 14:22-32. Peter, too, walked on water. When he doubted is when he began to sink.
2. Matthew 17:14-20. The infamous “faith the size of a mustard seed” quote.

But does our faith assure us of health and wealth? No. How many of the apostles were martyred? How many of the disciples of God have been unjustly persecuted? Our God himself was unjustly murdered at the hands of another! Our assurance is not an earthly justice–it is an eternal one! We can rejoice in the Good News that there is justice in heaven. That through Christ, we no longer are justified through the law, but through love. That we are no longer under a law, but that Christ has fulfilled the law. That we may join God in eternal glory. That we have the ability to fully know him and fully choose him.

I do not believe that Fr. Serpa was discussing predestination in his short response. He focused on why the Lord does not answer some of our prayers. The answer was that he knows better than we do what it is we need, as well as what every other person on this planet needs. The reason he knows is because he is a loving parent who has a vastly greater amount of wisdom, if you will, from which to pull, compared to our infinitesimal knowledge. It is because God is pure love, and with that pure love he is able to love us so much that he knows what we will do before even we know it. His knowing what we will do does not equal his willing it, much less his forcing it.

 

[Forest-Pine]

As for whether our petitions have merit, I have seen several threads which reference those most devoted having a greater glory in heaven, the prayers of the righteous having a greater effect, etc. I do not believe these concepts could be true if our will and our petitions have no effect on God. What is true is that it has the greatest effect when we realize that all goodness comes from the Lord and when we desire with our utmost being that all creation be glorifying him–when we have true love and true faith. When I say that we align our will with the Lord’s, I do not mean that we like the same colors and the same dinners and the same catchy songs. I mean that we strive for all creation to serve him, including ourselves. We can see the great diversity in our own church among the faithful. We have 20-something churches which in communion make up the Catholic Church. Within them, we have religious orders, ecclesiastical movements, committees, and callings. The church does not micro-manage everything we do. It just requires all we do to be for the greater glory of God. So, too, does God not will us to eat Honey Nut Cheerios over Apple Cinnamon ones. He wishes us to give glory to him for the blessing of food, instead, and be thankful for what we have. By truly loving him and having faith in him, we will seek out ways to best serve him. We, as Catholics, know a part of who God is–as a matter of fact, we have access to all God is through the Eucharist as Jesus was the Word and is the Lord–and we know what he wants of us through scripture and tradition. In true love and true faith, we will stay within the vast framework the Church provides in our desire to serve the Lord. We have the ability to discern our callings and ask for guidance. When we ask his guidance and heed his advice, striving to serve and glorify him, we have true faith. How else might we ask the Lord what he desires us to do, but through prayers of petition?

The Lord does not always give us what we ask for, just like a parent does not always give a child what he asks for. But in his goodness and love, the Lord will always give us what we ask for when it conforms to his will. What is his will? How do we know what the Lord wills? We look to the Church he instituted. We ask him (petition him) for guidance. We desire with our every step to keep walking toward him. Even if the winds get rough and the water deep and our fear is strong, as long as we walk toward Christ we will be on solid footing. When we lose our faith, when we stumble, when we turn aside, when we ask for things which do not glorify Christ, and therefore desire to not serve him with all we do and all we are, then we will have the trash topple on our heads. Are our petitions futile? Only if they are done without love and without faith.

 

[Didi]

I remember reading about St. Padre Pio sharing with another priest that he prayed daily for the soul of his mother. He somehow received a message from God that his mother was in heaven, yet he continued praying for her soul daily. The priest friend asked him why he continued praying, to which Padre Pio replied “My mother is now in heaven because God knew I would pray for her every day until I died.”

God is outside of our idea of time. He can anticipate prayers.

Also, we must remember that prayer isn’t a one-way street. It’s not a list of what we want from God, it’s communication with Him. He wants us to bring every thought and every concern and every joy to Him. Through prayer we become closer to Him and more accepting of His will.

In praying for others, we become instruments of grace. We look outside our own little world and see the needs of others. It is a very humbling thing to pray for someone who has hurt us. Jesus showed us this during His passion “Father, forgive them…”

God has abundant graces ready to shower on us all, but He never forces His grace on anyone. We have to ask for it. So if I’m sick and I ask people to pray for me, the more who are praying, the more the floodgates of His grace are opened to shower upon me. That doesn’t mean I’ll get well, but it does mean that God will give me the strength to get through whatever comes my way and that His will is more likely to be accomplished in my life if I am open to Him.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Forest Pine, you make good sense. I guess part of it is that I’ve never really understood the line between free will and predestination. I mean, say something really terrible happens, like you child is seriously injured in a car accident because of a drunk driver. (I know this is getting a little off topic.) Now was it really God’s will that someone drive drunk and injure someone else? I would tend to think no, that it was the drunk’s free will. But what if your daughter dies? Then it was God’s will, because we know only God can take life.

I pray primarily prayers of thanksgiving, prayers for guidance, and prayers for others. I pray a lot for the conversion of my family. I know prayer is an important part of the conversion process, so clearly there is free will involved on the part of the person to be converted. Lately I’ve been praying for a safe and healthy delivery and a healthy baby. I’m not sure what God has planned, but I pray it’s a healthy baby. I imagine there is still free will involved on the part of the doctors and nurses, so those prayers can change things, I hope. I know I wouldn’t have the strength Arlene had when her dear son died. Early on in my pregnancy when I had cramping, I cried and prayed for the Lord not to take my baby. I think it’s hard not to. I admire your strength.

 

[Forest-Pine]

MooCowSteph:

Then it was God’s will, because we know only God can take life.

I disagree. It is God who WELCOMES all saints home, but I don’t believe he TAKES them.

I must state that there are two theories around predestination (which I am not very knowledgeable about). One, my husband subscribes to. The other I do, apparently. I THINK they are Thomas Aquinas’ and Augustine’s. It is my husband who looked into this and not I. Nonetheless, a Catholic is free to hold either view. One apparently is more common than the other, but they are on equal footing theologically. So, if you are interested in this, you could explore it further. Now back to what I was saying:

It is my opinion that natural laws govern our natural world. For instance, if a drunk driver (of his own free will) crashes his car into yours in such a way that your child is injured or killed, your child’s injury or death is on the hands of the drunk driver. The Lord, in his mercy, can decide to act outside of the natural laws–and perform a miracle. If he does so, it is only out of mercy, and not obligation. We might wonder why he would not. After all, a life of suffering is to be had by you and possibly your child. Why would God allow an innocent to suffer?

1. Because we each have free will, and to remove it (by saving all the innocents) there would be no consequences for sins.

The effect this would have is twofold:
–It would make us incapable of choosing to love the Lord.
–It would put goodness and evil as equals–afterall, it doesn’t matter what you do as it will all turn out the same in the end. And if this is so, then why choose good?

1. Because an innocent is assured of a heavenly reward. Who better to die than the person who will be welcomed immediately into heaven? Better to leave the sinner here, to be transformed by the suffering of the innocent, and hopefully allow him time to respond to the Lord (again, of his own free will).
2. Because suffering unites us with the Lord’s passion and helps us to seek out his will for our lives. Suffering has a place in our society because it is redeeming. Pope John Paul II is a perfect example of this. Look at how many called for him to retire, then look at how moved the entire world was by his graceful acceptance of his suffering. I’ve seen messages on this board from Muslims and Protestants that say his suffering and death had the most profound effect upon them, softening their hearts to Catholicism more than anything else ever has.
3. Because the suffering of a single innocent person can bring about great changes in the lives and souls of many to follow. Just look at the stories of the saints that we recall so vividly today, and how we find comfort and grace within them. If they had not suffered, we would not see ourselves in their lives and many would not ever have been saved.
4. Because God doesn’t promise us a life of rose gardens. He promises us a life of eternal glory, if we want it.

My thought process is that God doesn’t will evil things to happen to us. When they do happen to us, though, God does have a definite desire that we choose to still keep walking toward him.

Again, I compare it to parenting. Would you ever wish pain and suffering on your child? Of course not. But when it happens, do you have a desire for your child to find strength and grace to overcome the sufferings? Of course. The same is true of the Lord. He does not wish evil upon us. We each have free will to choose which way we will go. God is disappointed and saddened when someone turns away from him. How much more saddening do you think it is if that person’s actions lead others away as well?

In your example of a drunk driver killing a child: I do not believe God willed the person to get drunk. I do not believe God willed the person to drive. I do not believe God willed the person to crash into your car. I do not believe God has a plan which includes this, despite the very common rhetoric in today’s time to the contrary. I believe God did have a plan for that person’s life. One of serving Him. But the person rejected this and did his own thing. He ended up causing needless and incomprehensible suffering through his choices. Where does that leave the parent who is now mourning the death of his child? He now, too, is faced with an option of serving the Lord or of doing his own thing. He can blame God and walk away, or he can find solace in God’s message of justice and mercy and bring himself closer to the Lord. The book of Job outlines this remarkably well. He had to choose to keep calling on the Lord or to give up. He made the right choice. It was one of faith, and fraught with uncertainty. But he knew that as long as kept heading toward the Lord he would be all right. So will we all.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Forest-Pine:

I disagree. It is God who WELCOMES all saints home, but I don’t believe he TAKES them.

I always took Matthew 10:29 to mean that only God can take life. “Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.” Maybe I am misinterpreting this passage. Of course it’s only God who can give life, as well.

I must state that there are two theories around predestination (which I am not very knowledgeable about). One, my husband subscribes to. The other I do, apparently. I THINK they are Thomas Aquinas’ and Augustine’s. It is my husband who looked into this and not I. Nonetheless, a Catholic is free to hold either view. One apparently is more common than the other, but they are on equal footing theologically. So, if you are interested in this, you could explore it further.

This looks interesting. I am going to google it.

In your example of a drunk driver killing a child: I do not believe God willed the person to get drunk. I do not believe God willed the person to drive. I do not believe God willed the person to crash into your car. I do not believe God has a plan which includes this, despite the very common rhetoric in today’s time to the contrary. I believe God did have a plan for that person’s life. One of serving Him. But the person rejected this and did his own thing. He ended up causing needless and incomprehensible suffering through his choices. Where does that leave the parent who is now mourning the death of his child? He now, too, is faced with an option of serving the Lord or of doing his own thing. He can blame God and walk away, or he can find solace in God’s message of justice and mercy and bring himself closer to the Lord. The book of Job outlines this remarkably well. He had to choose to keep calling on the Lord or to give up. He made the right choice. It was one of faith, and fraught with uncertainty. But he knew that as long as kept heading toward the Lord he would be all right. So will we all.

I agree with you here. I don’t believe God ever wills us to do wrong. I’m going to do more reading on predestination. It’s interesting and complicated.

 

[Grace_and_Glory]

I think it makes a lot of sense that God would allow us to affect what happens through our prayers. After all, he allows us to affect what happens through our actions. A priest I heard talking about this said that it’s kind of like baking a cake. It makes no sense to set out all the ingredients and say, “Well, if it’s God’s will, the cake will be baked. If not, it won’t.” We have to actually bake the cake.
Another thing I’ve heard is from Pascal–“God instituted prayer to give his creatures the dignity of being causes.” God wants us to share in his plan of salvation. Prayer is one (and the most effective) way of doing that.
I don’t know if I actually addressed what you’re talking about, but I thought I’d give some of my thoughts.

 

[Arlene]

In your example of a drunk driver killing a child: I do not believe God willed the person to get drunk. I do not believe God willed the person to drive. I do not believe God willed the person to crash into your car. I do not believe God has a plan which includes this, despite the very common rhetoric in today’s time to the contrary. I believe God did have a plan for that person’s life. One of serving Him. But the person rejected this and did his own thing. He ended up causing needless and incomprehensible suffering through his choices.

I understant what you are saying about the person who got drunk and chose to drive of his own free will. But by exercising his free will, he became instrumental in fullfilling God’s plan for the child. I believe it was God’s plan for the Child to be taken into Heaven early.

Where does that leave the parent who is now mourning the death of his child? He now, too, is faced with an option of serving the Lord or of doing his own thing. He can blame God and walk away, or he can find solace in God’s message of justice and mercy and bring himself closer to the Lord.

Exactly. He can draw on his strength and faith and accept that his child was only given to him for the period of time that God had designed, and know that in time he will be with his child again for eternity, OR he can turn from God in his anger and pain and be bitter for the rest of his life. (For me personally, my fear is that if I chose the second option it would blow my chance of reuniting with my son, and I can’t risk that.)

Arlene

 

[Ana]

MooCowSteph:

This looks interesting. I am going to google it.

.

Sounds like a great thread topic. Not that this one isn’t. I have always grappled with this question myself and am interested by the poster’s response alluding to different understandings between St. Augustine and St. Aquinas.