[The ends don't justify the means] AND [Jesus murdered so you can escape hell]

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

The ends don’t justify the means. Jesus being murdered is the means to save humanity.

 

[JosephDColeman]

God didn’t murder Jesus. God used man’s freely chosen action of murdering Jesus to bring about the redemption of mankind. God is so smart that He can use the wicked schemes of His enemies against them, and He’s so loving that when He did use it against them He did it to redeem them. It’s actually amazing if you think about it.

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

I do not claim God murders Jesus. I claim that Jesus was murdered, this is not controvershail.

Does the end of Heaven justify God placing himself into suicide by Roman?

 

[JosephDColeman]

Does the end of Heaven justify God placing himself into suicide by Roman?

If by “suicide by Roman” you mean self sacrifice and if by “heaven” you mean opening the floodgates of heaven for all of mankind, I would say yes.

Don’t you think a Father jumping in front of a bullet so that his son could live would be admirable?

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

That is a trolley problem. The Catholic answer to the trolley problem is to not decide who lives and dies from what I understand. The father jumping in front of the bullet is like pulling a lever on the trolley.

 

[JosephDColeman]

Also we must keep in mind that Christ conquered death by dying. So if we were using the trolley problem as an analogy we would have to factor in that pulling the lever would also eliminate all people in the future from ever being hit by a trolley again.

Christ’s sacrifice isn’t deciding who lives or who dies. It’s giving everyone the chance to never die by sacrificing himself. Also, he’s not choosing to kill another like in the trolley problem, he’s giving himself up to save the world.

 

[Inquiry]

That’s not the trolley problem. You are describing five people were on the track and one person could stop the trolley with his own body. Can he do that? Yes. Sacrificing yourself to save others is a moral good, not a moral evil.

 

[Vico]

The ends don’t justify the means. Jesus being murdered is the means to save humanity.

The title has “Jesus murdered so you can escape hell” so note the Catechism states this:

608 After agreeing to baptize him along with the sinners, John the Baptist looked at Jesus and pointed him out as the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”. 422 By doing so, he reveals that Jesus is at the same time the suffering Servant who silently allows himself to be led to the slaughter and who bears the sin of the multitudes, and also the Paschal Lamb, the symbol of Israel’s redemption at the first Passover. 423 Christ’s whole life expresses his mission: “to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” 424

 

[Julius]

Im pretty sure „the ends justify the means“ argument is prohibited only for humans. As God knows exactly what he’s doing, while humans can only assume the outcome would be „good“

Note:I looked it up and it’s called consequentialism.

 

[goout]

The ends/means argument is utilitarian. In order to accomplish the end, the actor uses something, or someone, to accomplish the end.
God does not use people in a utilitarian sense because God is love. Love does not view people as tools. How much more then is Jesus not a tool to be used.

In Jesus, God enters the human condition by the incarnation. When he enters the human condition Jesus immerses himself in everything that is human, including sin and suffering. Those sins are committed by man.
God does not use the person of Jesus in a utilitarian way to effect a desired outcome. God’s kingdom is one of love, and Jesus comes preaching that kingdom. God does not will violence on his Son. He simply immerses himself, and humanity makes violence the price of that full immersion.

We exact the price of our own salvation.

 

[Donald_S]

“The ends don’t justify the means” is generally an inaccurate statement. If someone tells me to work at my job for 40 hours and they’ll pay me $1,000, the end surely justifies the means to get there.

A more accurate statement for moral purposes would be “One cannot do evil so that good may be the outcome.” Christ coming to Earth, His ministry, and His death and resurrection did not require or result in any evil that He personally committed. Any evil that occurred came from others.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

The ends don’t justify the means. Jesus being murdered is the means to save humanity.

Jesus choose to use it for that purpose, the people that killed Jesus did not intend for any good to come out of it.

The Catholic answer to the trolley problem is to not decide who lives and dies from what I understand. The father jumping in front of the bullet is like pulling a lever on the trolley.

Self-sacrifice isn’t the same as sacrificing others.

Death itself could be defeated only through the death of Son of God.

It was the plan from the very beginning. Before even Earth and World existed. Don’t you remember:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [Colossians 1: 15-16]

That verse is ambigious.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Jesus was not murdered. Jesus voluntarily laid down His life.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Jesus was not murdered. Jesus voluntarily laid down His life.

I think it’s easy for people to forget this. The only reason that the Jews and Romans were able to do that to Jesus was because He actively willed their continued existence even while they were torturing and crucifying Him.

The only reason His body died was because He allowed it to, rather than willing it to be healed.

The people were guilt of murder insofar as they actively willed and participated in the death of an innocent man, but they could not have done that if Jesus didn’t allow it to occur.

 

[goout]

TheLittleLady:

Jesus was not murdered. Jesus voluntarily laid down His life.

I think it’s easy for people to forget this. The only reason that the Jews and Romans were able to do that to Jesus was because He actively willed their continued existence even while they were torturing and crucifying Him.

The only reason His body died was because He allowed it to, rather than willing it to be healed.

The people were guilt of murder insofar as they actively willed and participated in the death of an innocent man, but they could not have done that if Jesus didn’t allow it to occur.

ummm I dunno.
That’s causing me a brain freeze, thinking about Christ and his being fully human in all things but sin.
The Incarnation and the inter-relation of divinity/humanity is chock full of mystery.

 

[TheLittleLady]

We can even be sola scriptura and understand that Sacred Scripture says that Jesus laid down His life (in some translations “gave up the ghost”).