The Fall According to Mormonism

[Pug]

Not only do the JWs deny the Trinity; they deny that Jesus is God in any way.

They’re not Christians, either.

JWs probably say they are the true Christians and that the rest are part of “Christendom”. They say they are not part of “Christendom”, by which I assume they mean that Catholics, Lutherans, Evangelicals, etc. are not really Christians, or are not true Christians, but I don’t know for sure. Anyway, it seems that they themselves make a real distinction between a JW and some of the rest. I don’t think they want to be lumped in with most of what the world labels as Christian religions. But that is only based on my paucity of experience with their pamphlets and missionaries.

If a group wishes to separate itself from the rest of Christianity, then I don’t think it is disrespectful to that group to use language that respects their wish.

I don’t know about LDS. Do LDS think Catholics and Lutherans, etc. are Christian or Christian religions or however that would be phrased? Since they rebaptize people who were baptized Lutheran, etc., I would have guessed they would say no, those religions are not truly Christian. But I don’t know.

 

[teancum79]

No one’s trashing anyone.

Both the Mormons and the JWs think Christianity is false, have viciously attacked the creeds and tenets of Christianity, and have historically set themselves apart from Christians. That’s simply a fact - stating such is not “trashing” them.

Simply including Christ in a mythos does not make a sect Christian. If it did, we could say that Islam is actually Christian, since they recognize Jesus as a prophet.

I can’t speak for the JW’s but the LDS beliefs do not separate themselves from Christianity we simply reject some man made conclusions that incorrect despite their popularity.

 

[ibkc]

I can’t speak for the JW’s but the LDS beliefs do not separate themselves from Christianity we simply reject some man made conclusions that incorrect despite their popularity.

See the long list of quotes I posted above. History does not change no matter how much you say it does! I am delighted that the Mormon mindset has changed and that now y’all want to be considered mainstream, but lying about your past is not the way to do that.

 

[Jerusha]

we simply reject some man made conclusions that are incorrect despite their popularity.

I am so glad the LDS Church has given up the BOM as sacred scripture. :coffeeread: It’s about time.

 

[Steven_John]

I’m pretty sure she means Roman Catholic or a derivative thereof (Protestant). Or that She is the High and Mighty Judge of All Those Who Claim to be Christian.

I did not ask in disrespect.

Just in the charitable spirit of sharing.

 

[Steven_John]

No one’s trashing anyone.

Both the Mormons and the JWs think Christianity is false, have viciously attacked the creeds and tenets of Christianity, and have historically set themselves apart from Christians. That’s simply a fact - stating such is not “trashing” them.

Simply including Christ in a mythos does not make a sect Christian. If it did, we could say that Islam is actually Christian, since they recognize Jesus as a prophet.

This could be said to be true as Islamic religion explained to me is that Jesus (pbwh) was of the Islamic faith and the Quran says not all Christians of that day were in error.
So in that day, in that part of the world there must have been people who said they were Christians but did not believe in trinity.

However most “muslims” i know speak against Christianity.

I think this most of oral teaching not of reading Quran.

The Quran does speak against trinitarians.

I have not had any trinitarian tell me that they have this understanding from the bible without being explained it orally first.

Does any on know when the word trinity first was used?

 

[zerinus]

I don’t know about LDS. Do LDS think Catholics and Lutherans, etc. are Christian or Christian religions or however that would be phrased? Since they rebaptize people who were baptized Lutheran, etc., I would have guessed they would say no, those religions are not truly Christian. But I don’t know.

We call a Christian anybody who wants to be called a Christian. We extend to people the courtesy of being called by whatever name they want to be called. We do, however, believe that the early Christian church went into apostasy, and lost the priesthood authority and ecclesiastical legitimacy that it once possessed. But that does not mean that they cannot justifiably be called Christians if they believe in Christ and in the Bible as the word of God.

All of this nonsense about who is and who is not a Christian began by the Evangelicals, and as a countermeasure against the LDS claim of the Apostasy. The LDS doctrine of the Apostasy and Restoration upsets Christians of other faiths quite a lot, because it tends to pulls the rug from under their feet. So the Evans decided to counter it by calling us not Christians! Then they got carried away with that idea, and started calling other churches not being Christians! Their first victim after Mormonism was the Catholic Church! They started calling them not Christians. Then they extended it to every other church except themselves; and finally even to themselves! Some time ago I entered into an Evangelical church and started talking to one of the activists there. I happen to mention one of their own rival Evan Churches; and she promptly replied, “We think they are not Christians!” Now the fever has been caught by other churches and sects as well, and even by Catholics; and they are starting to call those they disagree with as not being Christians! So their perversion has ultimately rebounded back on themselves. The whole of the (apostate) Christendom has been reduced to a large bunch of squabbling sects calling each other not Christians! LDS, however, have are the only ones who have stayed aloof from all of this. They are sufficiently confident in themselves and in their theological position that they don’t need to resort to such name callings. They pursue a steady course, preaching the gospel and bearing testimony to all the world of the Restoration in the last days, and bring thousands of people into the Church every year, without the need to resort to such cheap, dishonest, dishonorable, and disreputable tactics.

zerinus

 

[armyross]

No one’s trashing anyone.

Both the Mormons and the JWs think Christianity is false, have viciously attacked the creeds and tenets of Christianity, and have historically set themselves apart from Christians. That’s simply a fact - stating such is not “trashing” them.

Simply including Christ in a mythos does not make a sect Christian. If it did, we could say that Islam is actually Christian, since they recognize Jesus as a prophet.

Mormons consider themselfs as Christians. I don’t think thay are but I know that they see themselfs as such.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Hmmm–if I called a dog a “cat”, would it be? If my neighbor called the dog a “cat”, and I was just trying to make him feel better about his mistake, would it actually make the dog a “cat”? Honestly, it’s not about “trashing”, it’s about not giving in to confusion. Being “Christian” is not just about recognizing that a man named Jesus existed. As said before, we could call Muslims “Christian” and more could also be called “Christian”, probably some atheists too.

 

[armyross]

that on my list of Christians , no one has trashed the Unitarians yet. QUOTE]

I am talking about one post not all of them. What I am talking about is this one comment.

 

[bnapgh]

A few respectful questions to our LDS friends:

1. Do you believe that Jesus is God? Co equal with the Father?
2. Do you believe in reincarnation?
3. With which specific teachings of the Roman Catholic Church do you disagree?

Thanks

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Recently on another thread, a Mormon claimed that Adam and Eve were given two contradictory commandments by God, which forced them to choose to disobey one in order to obey the other, thus causing the Fall. He claimed the two conflicting commandments were (1) be fruitfull and multiply, and (2) do not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Mormon’s position was that Adam and Eve could not multiply (have children) unless they first ate the forbidden fruit, because in their pre-Fall innocent state they didn’t know anything about sex. So they disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit, and thus gained the knowledge of good and evil in order to obey God’s other commandment to be fruitfull and multiply.

I believe this claim to be entirely preposterous. God would not set up his children in such a sadistic manner. God is not a god of disorder, but of order. He doesn’t play games with us. He doesn’t give out contradictory commandments and force us to disobey one by obeying another. I asked for more explanation from the LDS on the thread, but none have yet come forth.

I would like to hear from LDS as to whether this is really the teaching of the Mormon Church and if so, how can you possibly justify this position?

**Mormonism has an unorthodox view of who Jesus is; Early on when they came into existance by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s believed Adam was Jesus. Then when the Mormons made a prediction of the second coming of Jesus, and it did not come to pass, the Mormon church began to splinter. So this teaching may or may not be Mormon, and if it is, not all Mormons will agree the same on this teaching. But you got my attention.

Peace be with you**

 

[PaulDupre]

**Mormonism has an unorthodox view of who Jesus is; Early on when they came into existance by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s believed Adam was Jesus. Then when the Mormons made a prediction of the second coming of Jesus, and it did not come to pass, the Mormon church began to splinter. So this teaching may or may not be Mormon, and if it is, not all Mormons will agree the same on this teaching. But you got my attention.

Peace be with you**

Close, but no cigar. It was Brigham Young who taught that Adam was God the Father, not Jesus. That teaching was recently formally repudiated by the LDS leadership.

True, Joseph Smith predicted that Jesus would return in 1891 and of course this prophecy failed. But it caused no major fracture of the LDS community.

The splintering of Mormonism into many factions happened following the death of Joseph Smith. Several of his followers claimed to be his rightful successor and a vicious power grab ensued. There are to this day many Mormon splinter groups.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[zerinus]

A few respectful questions to our LDS friends:

1. Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Yes.

Co equal with the Father?

Subordinate to the Father: “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).

1. Do you believe in reincarnation?

No.

1. With which specific teachings of the Roman Catholic Church do you disagree?

It would be difficult to give a list of all the specific teachings, because there would probably be many, and it is hard to think of them all—infant baptism being one of them, for example. But the main difference is that we believe that the early Christian church went into Apostasy, and lost the priesthood authority that it once possessed, and with it the ability to lead the curch by revelation, or to perform valid sacraments in the church. That priesthood authority has been restored to the LDS Church by the ministration of angels in the latter days.

zerinus

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Close, but no cigar. It was Brigham Young who taught that Adam was God the Father, not Jesus. That teaching was recently formally repudiated by the LDS leadership.

**Thank you PaulDupre for that clarification: Sometimes it is hard to remember what all the adventist groups believed. Did not the Mormon Church teach and believe that Michael the archangel (not Jesus) was actually Adam?. Are you sure Paul, Brigham taught Adam was God the Father? I have him teaching Michael is Adam in his journal of discourses. I miss quoted and thought it was Jesus.

That is why it gets confusing from these different denominations, because they start off believing one thing split off and believe or practice another way.

For example JW’s borrowed the teaching from Mormons that denied the Holy Spirit is a person. And here is the twister the JW’s believed that Michael was Jesus, the second Adam. See how one can easily get confused

Now that time has gone by since the beginnings of the adventist’s groups, Mormonism, JW’s, now Seventh Day Adventist, one can be talking to them and mention a topic of belief, and tell you they dont believe that way no more, or easily get one mixed up with the other off the street.**

True, Joseph Smith predicted that Jesus would return in 1891 and of course this prophecy failed. But it caused no major fracture of the LDS community.

**I agree with you, although my timing may have been off: of when the splinter groups occurred in Mormonism. I may have confused Mormons failed second coming with the SDA’s failed second coming that splintered upon the failed Prophecy, Maybe it was the JW’s prediction. I am not sure now? I just got confused thinking about all of them at the same time. Just ignore the last statement **

The splintering of Mormonism into many factions happened following the death of Joseph Smith. Several of his followers claimed to be his rightful successor and a vicious power grab ensued. There are to this day many Mormon splinter groups.

God bless you,
Paul

And God bless you, and his peace be with you

 

[Steven_John]

Hmmm–if I called a dog a “cat”, would it be? If my neighbor called the dog a “cat”, and I was just trying to make him feel better about his mistake, would it actually make the dog a “cat”? Honestly, it’s not about “trashing”, it’s about not giving in to confusion. Being “Christian” is not just about recognizing that a man named Jesus existed. As said before, we could call Muslims “Christian” and more could also be called “Christian”, probably some atheists too.

The cat and dog analogy is good one. Using it we would define Christain as “a person that belives and follows Christ”

It separates for us Trinitarians as part of Christianity.

and proves by these words Muslims should be called Christians as in Islamic faith they are believing and following Jesus (pbwh).