The Fall of Angels and Men

[Willing_Spirit]

I am confused about what exactly is taught about several aspects of “the beginning”, due to seeking clarification from several random online sources.

First, what is the nature of Lucifer’s fall? I read that he was once the best angel, until he and all angels made an irrevocable choice to no longer serve God. I read that the fallen angels can never repent, not for a lack of God’s mercy, but because they made the choice with the beatific vision, and so there is nothing that can “change their minds” (which also means angels that decided not to follow Lucifer will never fall). Did angels not always have the beatific vision since their creation? Otherwise, how did they serve God for a time but “change their minds” and fall in the first place?

Second, if the fallen angels had no opportunity to repent because their choice was eternal given their having the beautific vision, why is man judged at death before they have the beatific vision based on how they lived for a certain number of years?

Third, what caused the corruption of nature? I have read that it was caused by man’s sin, but the Church allows for a belief in evolution, in which case Adam wouldn’t have existed before nature was already corrupt. I have read others attribute nature’s corruption to Lucifer’s fall, but how/where did the garden of Eden exist then? Was it just a small place on earth that God protected from corruption?

Sorry if this is too much for one thread, but I think the answers would influence each other. Thank you!

 

[Gorgias]

I read that the fallen angels can never repent, not for a lack of God’s mercy, but because they made the choice with the beatific vision, and so there is nothing that can “change their minds” (which also means angels that decided not to follow Lucifer will never fall). Did angels not always have the beatific vision since their creation? Otherwise, how did they serve God for a time but “change their minds” and fall in the first place?

No, they didn’t have the Beatific Vision until after they chose.

They cannot change their minds, because they aren’t like us – they have infused knowledge, rather than discursive knowledge. Therefore, they can never change their minds; they already know with certainty, and have made their decision in this eternal certainty.

Second, if the fallen angels had no opportunity to repent because their choice was eternal given their having the beautific vision

Right – that’s not the reason for the permanence of their decision, so the question doesn’t hold.

Third, what caused the corruption of nature? I have read that it was caused by man’s sin, but the Church allows for a belief in evolution, in which case Adam wouldn’t have existed before nature was already corrupt.

That depends on what you mean by “corrupt”.

 

[Willing_Spirit]

They cannot change their minds, because they aren’t like us – they have infused knowledge, rather than discursive knowledge.

I read that Lucifer didn’t fall immediately at his creation, that there was a time when he was good, so how did he “change his mind” and choose to fall?

That depends on what you mean by “corrupt”.

By corrupt I mean how animals kill eachother, rather than living in peace as depicted in Genesis and Revelations. Also illnesses and natural disasters and stuff.

 

[Inquiry]

Why do you think animals didn’t hunt before the fall?

 

[Vico]

… Third, what caused the corruption of nature? …

True evil is of two kinds, moral and physical. These two are considered to be a result of the fall of man. So it does seem that your are combining metaphysical and physical together.

There is so-called evil – metaphysical evil:

Metaphysical evil is the limitation by one another of various component parts of the natural world. Through this mutual limitation natural objects are for the most part prevented from attaining to their full or ideal perfection, whether by the constant pressure of physical condition, or by sudden catastrophes. (see reference)

Refer to: Sharpe, A. (1909). Evil. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

Catechism

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae ) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161

 

[Gorgias]

I read that Lucifer didn’t fall immediately at his creation, that there was a time when he was good, so how did he “change his mind” and choose to fall?

There’s a certain nuance necessary here. The angels don’t live within the temporal dimension of the universe, so they don’t have notions of “before” and “after” in the way we do.

The teaching would be that, upon their creation, without the benefit of the Beatific Vision, they were offered a choice. They made that choice, and it holds for the entirety of their existence (i.e., eternally).

By corrupt I mean how animals kill eachother, rather than living in peace as depicted in Genesis

There’s nothing in Genesis that suggests that carnivores were herbivores up until some point, is there? It talks about humans beginning to eat meat – which might give rise to an interesting discussion! – but not animals…

 

[Willing_Spirit]

There’s nothing in Genesis that suggests that carnivores were herbivores up until some point, is there?

No, it seems I was mistaken (possibly subconcious memory of the tame depiction of animals in children’s cartoons and coloring books). Thank you!

I found further reading on that subject here:

Was There Death Before the Fall? | Catholic Answers Magazine