The Father did not "choose" His Son to die

[Lily_Bernans]

The Father did not “choose” His Son to die. That is the statement of the thread.

Because God is simple, or one, uncomplicated, not many anything. How could we say the Father “chose” or made many individual choices? Because we can see everyone is praying for God to hear them and “chose” to do our will. And many times he does. Does that mean he has these frequent little choices to be made for every individual that prays to him?

Of course God can’t … it would be a contradiction to his simplicity. Then in what way does he carry out our requests if he doesn’t do it on an individual basis? Simple … he doesn’t do it on that basis but rather from eternity. And that is something no human can comprehend because they are not on an equal basis with God and therefore do not have the mental equipment to grasp it.

And so the Father did chose his Son to be the sacrifical lamb and die on the cross … but from all eternity. This is not being evasive, but is a fact based on what God is…simply one act. By one act he willed it all.
And saying this is more than anyone can understand.

 

[friardchips]

The Father did not “choose” His Son to die. That is the statement of the thread.

Because God is simple, or one, uncomplicated, not many anything. How could we say the Father “chose” or made many individual choices? Because we can see everyone is praying for God to hear them and “chose” to do our will. And many times he does. Does that mean he has these frequent little choices to be made for every individual that prays to him?

Of course God can’t … it would be a contradiction to his simplicity. Then in what way does he carry out our requests if he doesn’t do it on an individual basis? Simple … he doesn’t do it on that basis but rather from eternity. And that is something no human can comprehend because they are not on an equal basis with God and therefore do not have the mental equipment to grasp it.

And so the Father did chose his Son to be the sacrifical lamb and die on the cross … but from all eternity. This is not being evasive, but is a fact based on what God is…simply one act. By one act he willed it all.
And saying this is more than anyone can understand.

You say it isn’t being evasive. Okay. But your post only goes some way to answering the thread. And we are given reason. So although His thoughts are way above ours, reasoning with faith and faith itself, does point to eternal truth.

One cannot say he “chose” in any exacting sense of the word, not here or from eternity, quite simply, because to choose is to choose between one thing that is good and another that is lesser good, but no good can be equal because there is an order, a hierarchy of things in creation, and if it is that we are to understand that He is perfect, then to say He chose, is less than accurate because He who is perfect does not choose less than perfect means. There is no choice. His Will IS. As one holy person said, that He is the Divine source of all that is good. He perfect will was fulfilled via our imperfections. That is the way it is. He shepherds us but does this in a world in which people were given freewill that could used chaotically. If our Creator could ‘choose’ then we are talking about the gods of the ancient greeks - emotion only. Not to mention the fact that if we speak of Him choosing to sacrifice His Son, we are excluding the acts of those humans involved directly in His crucifixion. It is inaccurate. I’m pretty sure that if you look this up on proper Catholic resources you will see. Try reading the link by Pope Benedict given on this thread. He speaks of an order. Of course, Our Creator has provided the grace for all to participate in one another’s salvation, so this can come to pass through many entangled ways. Such is life. But the very plan for redemption, for existence, has been spoken. The Act of His Will. This Willing, this Act was a ‘choice’? Hmm.

 

[friardchips]

I haven’t the vaguest idea what that has to do with me. I’ve known about the hypostatic union since I’ve been a little girl. I never denied Christ’s divinity or the fact that he is homoousios with the Father. However he also homoousios with us in all ways but sin.

You do know what " created" means, right?

 

[friardchips]

The Father did not “choose” His Son to die. That is the statement of the thread.

Because God is simple, or one, uncomplicated, not many anything. How could we say the Father “chose” or made many individual choices? Because we can see everyone is praying for God to hear them and “chose” to do our will. And many times he does. Does that mean he has these frequent little choices to be made for every individual that prays to him?

Of course God can’t … it would be a contradiction to his simplicity. Then in what way does he carry out our requests if he doesn’t do it on an individual basis? Simple … he doesn’t do it on that basis but rather from eternity. And that is something no human can comprehend because they are not on an equal basis with God and therefore do not have the mental equipment to grasp it.

And so the Father did chose his Son to be the sacrifical lamb and die on the cross … but from all eternity. This is not being evasive, but is a fact based on what God is…simply one act. By one act he willed it all.
And saying this is more than anyone can understand.

…in addition, there is a difference in saying that He Willed Creation into being to He Willed some to live and some to die. He is eternal and so is the Beginning and the End but this is because He knows what we are to choose not that He Willed us to make those choices. We participate or we don’t.

There is also a difference between Willing Creation into being, and Fulfillment of the Word Made Flesh. Had Adam and Even not sinned then this would not have needed to be. Had satan not fallen then maybe Adam and Eve would not have done so. He gave all His creatures the ability to choose to reciprocate Himself with gratitude. All creatures made in His Image were given this human CHOICE. He does not need to choose to Love because He is LOVE.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

You do know what " created" means, right?

Why do you keep misconstruing my words? The divinity of Christ was not “created.” As the eternal Word, Christ was present from all eternity. However, when he took on human flesh, that humanity was created or he would not be homoousious with us in every way but sin. Everything that is human is created. He died, didn’t he? All created things die. I DO NOT BELIEVE CHRIST, THE DIVINE SECOND PERSON OF THE HOLY TRINITY, WAS CREATED. HE WAS BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, THEREFORE HE IS OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS THE FATHER. However, he ALSO had a HUMAN body, and humans are created.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

…in addition, there is a difference in saying that He Willed Creation into being to He Willed some to live and some to die. He is eternal and so is the Beginning and the End but this is because He knows what we are to choose not that He Willed us to make those choices. We participate or we don’t.

There is also a difference between Willing Creation into being, and Fulfillment of the Word Made Flesh. Had Adam and Even not sinned then this would not have needed to be. Had satan not fallen then maybe Adam and Eve would not have done so. He gave all His creatures the ability to choose to reciprocate Himself with gratitude. All creatures made in His Image were given this human CHOICE. He does not need to choose to Love because He is LOVE.

God doesn’t make choices and decisions or sit back and wait and see what humans are going to do. God lives in timelessness. There is no past or present for him. He created (and I do mean created) Adam and Eve. When he did, he knew they were going to sin even though they did have free will (before some snipes, I do NOT believe in predestination). The Cross of Christ was going to happen because it is most fitting for us.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

But* how *is it perfect? Please, explain?

Yes. But the fact that he says it would most likely and naturally mean that he was feeling it–forsaken. And if he’d agreed to the plan as per Augustine’s imaginative “reasoning” then he would not or should not feel forsaken.

If Ms Lily Bernans would let me answer this:

Jesus’ obedience is perfect because obedience subsists completely in the will, not in the “feelings”. In fact, Jesus crying out His feeling of abandonment by His Father shows how perfect His obedience was. His outward passions were feeling the seeming abandonment of God even though in His reason He knows what is happening, yet His will remains steadfast to following the will of the Father.

As G.K. Chesterton said, this is the nearest that God became an atheist.

In fact, Jesus actually was teaching the crowd with His cry of abandonment! As Lily mentioned, His words were the beginning of Psalm 22, which is a prophecy of what was happening to Him right then and there. The Jews watching surely had caught on to what He said. Read it for yourself.

But how, exactly, do you really know that God doesn’t have a hand or a head?
If he created men and women in his own image, there is a good chance he does indeed have a head and a hand.

Because of St. Thomas Aquinas, among others: newadvent.org/summa/1003.htm#article1 (see the 2nd and 3rd objections).

I haven’t read all the posts yet so I’m not aware of the mean-spiritedness…that is too bad.
No offense taken at all…I’m just asking questions about how people think they “know” things, so I hope you and no one takes offense at my questions, either.

It often seems that some people believe something just because someone wrote it and claims it’s true…and often, these things seem very illogical…so I must ask questions to understand why they believe it.

.

Well, my attitude on that is that if the scientists say so in matters of science, then it most likely be so, and if the Catholic Church says so when it comes to the faith, then it most likely be so. I mean I do not have the time to answer all questions by myself; besides, if I have doubts on anything I can always read on what they have to say on the subject.

And yeah I can be blunt sometimes but I try to be nice

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

“That a good man may have his back to the wall is no more than we knew already, but that God could have His back to the wall is a boast for all insurgents forever. Christianity is the only religion on earth that has felt that omnipotence made God incomplete. Christianity alone felt that God, to be wholly God, must have been a rebel as well as a king. Alone of all creeds, Christianity has added courage to the virtues of the Creator. For the only courage worth calling courage must necessarily mean that the soul passes a breaking point – and does not break. In this indeed I approach a matter more dark and awful than it is easy to discuss; and I apologize in advance if any of my phrases fall wrong or seem irreverent touching a matter which the greatest saints and thinkers have justly feared to approach. But in the terrific tale of the Passion there is a distinct emotional suggestion that the author of all things (in some unthinkable way) went not only through agony, but through doubt. It is written, “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” No; but the Lord thy God may tempt Himself; and it seems as if this was what happened in Gethsemane. In a garden Satan tempted man: and in a garden God tempted God. He passed in some superhuman manner through our human horror of pessimism. When the world shook and the sun was wiped out of heaven, it was not at the crucifixion, but at the cry from the cross: the cry which confessed that God was forsaken of God. And now let the revolutionists choose a creed from all the creeds and a god from all the gods of the world, carefully weighing all the gods of inevitable recurrence and of unalterable power. They will not find another god who has himself been in revolt. Nay (the matter grows too difficult for human speech), but let the atheists themselves choose a god. They will find only one divinity who ever uttered their isolation; only one religion in which God seemed for an instant to be an atheist.”

G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

 

[friardchips]

Why do you keep misconstruing my words? The divinity of Christ was not “created.” As the eternal Word, Christ was present from all eternity. However, when he took on human flesh, that humanity was created or he would not be homoousious with us in every way but sin. Everything that is human is created. He died, didn’t he? All created things die. I DO NOT BELIEVE CHRIST, THE DIVINE SECOND PERSON OF THE HOLY TRINITY, WAS CREATED. HE WAS BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, THEREFORE HE IS OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS THE FATHER. However, he ALSO had a HUMAN body, and humans are created.

Hence, why I keep reminding you that the word is not “created” that you are looking for, to describe His humanity. His humanity was not “created”. Wrong word. We understand His His birth to be the Incarnation and St. Paul describes this miracle as “He was manifested in the flesh.”

Maybe if one understands that all of Creation came to be through The Word, we will better understand how it is that He could assume the flesh and be fully human (as well as fully Divine) without His humanity having been “created”.

Please read this: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm

 

[friardchips]

God doesn’t make choices and decisions or sit back and wait and see what humans are going to do. God lives in timelessness. There is no past or present for him. He created (and I do mean created) Adam and Eve. When he did, he knew they were going to sin even though they did have free will (before some snipes, I do NOT believe in predestination). The Cross of Christ was going to happen because it is most fitting for us.

Agreed.

 

[friardchips]

+JMJ+

“That a good man may have his back to the wall is no more than we knew already, but that God could have His back to the wall is a boast for all insurgents forever. Christianity is the only religion on earth that has felt that omnipotence made God incomplete. Christianity alone felt that God, to be wholly God, must have been a rebel as well as a king. Alone of all creeds, Christianity has added courage to the virtues of the Creator. For the only courage worth calling courage must necessarily mean that the soul passes a breaking point – and does not break. In this indeed I approach a matter more dark and awful than it is easy to discuss; and I apologize in advance if any of my phrases fall wrong or seem irreverent touching a matter which the greatest saints and thinkers have justly feared to approach. But in the terrific tale of the Passion there is a distinct emotional suggestion that the author of all things (in some unthinkable way) went not only through agony, but through doubt. It is written, “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” No; but the Lord thy God may tempt Himself; and it seems as if this was what happened in Gethsemane. In a garden Satan tempted man: and in a garden God tempted God. He passed in some superhuman manner through our human horror of pessimism. When the world shook and the sun was wiped out of heaven, it was not at the crucifixion, but at the cry from the cross: the cry which confessed that God was forsaken of God. And now let the revolutionists choose a creed from all the creeds and a god from all the gods of the world, carefully weighing all the gods of inevitable recurrence and of unalterable power. They will not find another god who has himself been in revolt. Nay (the matter grows too difficult for human speech), but let the atheists themselves choose a god. They will find only one divinity who ever uttered their isolation; only one religion in which God seemed for an instant to be an atheist.”

G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

This is a wonderful passage. Thank you for posting it.

“Resting in full knowledge”, not “choosing”. He allowed Himself to be tempted. Just as our Creator has allowed for the evil that we do and justifies our suffering that He also endured.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Hence, why I keep reminding you that the word is not “created” that you are looking for, to describe His humanity. His humanity was not “created”. Wrong word. We understand His His birth to be the Incarnation and St. Paul describes this miracle as “He was manifested in the flesh.”

Maybe if one understands that all of Creation came to be through The Word, we will better understand how it is that He could assume the flesh and be fully human (as well as fully Divine) without His humanity having been “created”.

Please read this: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm

Semantics. And people wonder why the Bible sometimes seems to contradict itself. When one considers that it has been translated from Hebrew or Greek to Latin to English, I don’t wonder that there are more areas that confuse people. I will use Incarnated from now on. I agree it is a much better word choice. You are right. And it’s not just semantics, there is a difference. I see that. Thank you.

 

[friardchips]

Semantics. And people wonder why the Bible sometimes seems to contradict itself. When one considers that it has been translated from Hebrew or Greek to Latin to English, I don’t wonder that there are more areas that confuse people. I will use Incarnated from now on. I agree it is a much better word choice. You are right. And it’s not just semantics, there is a difference. I see that. Thank you.

True, yet considering the high likelihood of confusion in many areas, this also points to something of a miracle that we even have we do have at our fingertips. Thank you muchly for your contributions so far! Great stuff.

 

[friardchips]

Either way, whether Our Lord “chose” to rest in the Father’s Will, or rather remained in Perfect Will despite the Agony - He continued to pray throughout - His humanity aligned to, or rested in, His Divine Will of the Father in which the Creator sacrificing Himself for us was never a “choice”, but simply: Perfect Love.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Either way, whether Our Lord “chose” to rest in the Father’s Will, or rather remained in Perfect Will despite the Agony - He continued to pray throughout - His humanity aligned to, or rested in, His Divine Will of the Father in which the Creator sacrificing Himself for us was never a “choice”, but simply: Perfect Love.

Wonderfully said, and a great reminder to all of us of Christ’s Perfection and Love.