The Flood

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I believe the upper waters was moses way of saying what we now call “Clouds”. Although the WAS alot more water in general in his day.

1. There are words for “cloud” in Hebrew - so whoever wrote Genesis 6 to 8 should have used them, if by “waters above the firmament” clouds were meant. That was not done.​

We need to be careful, in case we wind up like the apologists for the Book of Mormon who claim (IIRC) that the BoM had no word for “red”, so used a word meaning “black”

1. The “waters above the firmament” would be above the visible heavens, not below, like the clouds. They corresponded to the “waters below the earth”, which is why the mention of the “breaking-up” of the “great deep” is significant. Both supplies of waters are kept in “treasuries”, presumably like vats; & the WABTF come down through sluices.

Usually, they come down (or up, as the case may be) in “graduated” amounts, so that they feed the world without completely drowning it - when the Flood happens, both are let loose, so that the world is reduced to (something like) its original state

1. As for God:

• Psa 29:3 The voice of the LORD is upon the waters; the God of glory thunders, the LORD, upon many waters.
  &
• Psa 29:10 The LORD sits enthroned over the flood; the LORD sits enthroned as king for ever.
  IOW, He is above the WABTF; which seems to be the picture taken for granted in the Flood narrative.

The picture of the universe in the text is crude, & false, by modern standards - but the worth of the text is not destroyed by that; any more than Dante’s Divine Comedy is destroyed by his having placed Purgatory at the Antipodes. The Flood may overwhelm the world know to men - but it cannot do this to God; He is always greater than all processes in nature: which was one of the crucial differences between Him, & “the gods of the nations”; because they existed within nature; never in independence of it.

This is far more important than worrying about the displacement of the Ark or the cubic volume of water required for a universal, simultaneous, inundation of the globe - the text is not bothered with hydro-dynamics (of which it knows nothing in any case); it is very much concerned with man, & man’s Creator, God. ##

 

[colliric]

how big was the Titanic. The ark in Genesis is about 300 yards long and 50 meters high, If I am remembering correctly.

I made an exagurattion there. didn’t recall the figure exactly all I recall is that the ark dwarfs titanic in terms of length.

Titanic was 268 Meters long(about 300 yards, the ark is quite a bit larger, it was measured in an older measurement of Cubits which was larger. I am informed it was about size of the largest Modern Air carriers.) it was 6:1 ratio too.

 

[FightingFat]

This is the beginning of the prayer this morning on www.sacredspace.ie : -

The Christian community has its Dreamtime, a subconscious world of stories, memories and images that have a powerful effect on our prayer, but are not easily documented in a way that would satisfy historians. The biblical book of Genesis is like the Australian Aboriginals’ Dreamtime, full of parables about the creation of the world and its early history, that carry a profound truth for our human condition, but do not relate to the careful researches of palaeontologists. Those who have grown up in the faith find that they warm to certain non-theological images and practices. They light candles. They have their favourite saints. They are deeply moved by devotions such as novenas, the Camino de Santiago, fiestas and processions, which nurture their sense of the transcendent, of another world intersecting our existence. Just because the scholars cannot quote chapter and verse to prove their authenticity, we are not going to write off the Virgin of Guadalupe, or Our Lady of Lourdes, or the images of Padre Pio, or St Jude’s help in hopeless cases, or St Anthony’s help in finding what is lost. These are the treasures of our dreamtime.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This is the beginning of the prayer this morning on www.sacredspace.ie : -

The Christian community has its Dreamtime, a subconscious world of stories, memories and images that have a powerful effect on our prayer, but are not easily documented in a way that would satisfy historians. The biblical book of Genesis is like the Australian Aboriginals’ Dreamtime, full of parables about the creation of the world and its early history, that carry a profound truth for our human condition, but do not relate to the careful researches of palaeontologists. Those who have grown up in the faith find that they warm to certain non-theological images and practices. They light candles. They have their favourite saints. They are deeply moved by devotions such as novenas, the Camino de Santiago, fiestas and processions, which nurture their sense of the transcendent, of another world intersecting our existence. Just because the scholars cannot quote chapter and verse to prove their authenticity, we are not going to write off the Virgin of Guadalupe, or Our Lady of Lourdes, or the images of Padre Pio, or St Jude’s help in hopeless cases, or St Anthony’s help in finding what is lost. These are the treasures of our dreamtime.

For a start, Genesis does not contain any parables; not that *you’re *saying it does.​

For another, that quotation appears to be encouraging “folk religion” because it exists and for no other reason. It’s true that reason is a limited instrument - but, folk religion is not self-justifying; without a solid doctrinal foundation, it is going to become nothing but ancestral superstition. It goes without saying that such things have nothing to do with the NT or the Gospel of salvation in Christ. People want to be religious - but they want to be free of God. This is like wanting to swim, on condition there is no water in which to do so.

The contentless, mindless, Christless, Gospel-free “spirituality” that talks much about the sacred, but never of the God Who is alone Glorious in Holiness & Righteousness, really worries me - I’d far rather have to do with a militant, clear-headed, clear-principled atheist, than with the sort of “religion” which is no more than a disguised form of thoroughly selfish narcissism; for that is no more than a (very ancient) form of paganism.

Alice Thomas Ellis (may she rest in peace) had the measure of it:

“In her bitterly polemical Serpent on the Rock: A Personal View of Christianity (1994), she declared that the Second Vatican Council had unleashed a “tide of sewage”, and lashed out at guitars and ecumenical priests - all the “Protestantised happy-clappy stuff” which would end in the “triumph of Chaos and old night”.”

Her books can be found (& ordered) here.

It’s not bitter at all - it’s extremely funny, full of memorable phrases, & right on target; positively damning. Not that she has to say very much - the photo in the book of two French hippy priests (they look more like American Indians than Christian priests) is more eloquent (& far more effective) than any Traditional-minded Catholic could be. Those quotations are in the book (the last is from Milton, of course; the obituarist appears not to be familiar with “Paradise Lost” - not that that need surprise anyone nowadays) ##

And now, back to the scheduled programme…