The Goats, The Sheep, Sin and Salvation

[GordonBOPS]

Scripture refers to a great global event in which the goats are separated from the sheep and the goats (who didn’t “help” the least among us) are condemned, but the sheep (who DID “help” the least among us) are saved. Now, how does this fit with the idea of unrepented mortal sin being the basic determining factor of salvation. Would one who helps the least among us (i.e. does all the things a sheep would have done), but who is say, shacking up with her boyfriend (and is unrepentant about it), isn’t that individual saved as well?

The bottom line quesiton is to help resolve or understand the tension between repenting of mortal sins for salvation vs. doing good deeds.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

GordonBOPS:

Scripture refers to a great global event in which the goats are separated from the sheep and the goats (who didn’t “help” the least among us) are condemned, but the sheep (who DID “help” the least among us) are saved. Now, how does this fit with the idea of unrepented mortal sin being the basic determining factor of salvation. Would one who helps the least among us (i.e. does all the things a sheep would have done), but who is say, shacking up with her boyfriend (and is unrepentant about it), isn’t that individual saved as well?

The bottom line quesiton is to help resolve or understand the tension between repenting of mortal sins for salvation vs. doing good deeds.

That’s why we are supposed to be extraordinarily careful: we don’t know. We can say “shacking up is a sin, it’s the high, easy road to hell,” which, of course, it is, but by the same token, there’s only One who can divide the sheep from the goats and the wheat from the tares. And Holy Writ says (somewhere),“Love covers many sins.” On the other hand, what are we to say about people who say,“Well, alrighty then, I’ll be good to the poor and still tear a bit off on the side?” That would seem to me to be at the very least a very odd and perverse example of the sin of presumption.

 

[banjo]

GordonBOPS:

Scripture refers to a great global event in which the goats are separated from the sheep and the goats (who didn’t “help” the least among us) are condemned, but the sheep (who DID “help” the least among us) are saved. Now, how does this fit with the idea of unrepented mortal sin being the basic determining factor of salvation. Would one who helps the least among us (i.e. does all the things a sheep would have done), but who is say, shacking up with her boyfriend (and is unrepentant about it), isn’t that individual saved as well?

The bottom line quesiton is to help resolve or understand the tension between repenting of mortal sins for salvation vs. doing good deeds.

In Mt 6:24, Christ tells us we cannot serve God and mammon. So, we have to make a choice. Jesus always calls us to himself, healing us and instructing us. There are many examples of Christ calling us to repentance and avoiding sin. Jn 5:14 “Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you,”
he said to the man he cured by the pool at Bethesda. Jn 8:11, “go, and do not sin again.” was his instruction to the woman caught in adultery. Again, in the letters of Paul and Peter: 2Tm 2:19, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity;” 2Tm 2:22, “shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness;” 1Pt 3:11, “let him trun away from evil and do right;”…you can find many other such exhortations. Mortal sins, as Fr. John Hardon states in The Catholic Catechism “are not remissible through any power within the soul itself: much as the human body, once dead, cannot be brought back to life except by a special intervention of God.” Again, “When a man sins mortally, he is dead twice over, once because he loses the gift of divine life he formerly had, and once again because he is no longer moving toward the consummation of that life in heaven.”

 

[Milliardo]

GordonBOPS:

Scripture refers to a great global event in which the goats are separated from the sheep and the goats (who didn’t “help” the least among us) are condemned, but the sheep (who DID “help” the least among us) are saved. Now, how does this fit with the idea of unrepented mortal sin being the basic determining factor of salvation. Would one who helps the least among us (i.e. does all the things a sheep would have done), but who is say, shacking up with her boyfriend (and is unrepentant about it), isn’t that individual saved as well?

No. Note that having grave sin in the first place is already condemnation in itself. Matthew 25:31ff would tie up well with Romans 2:5-8, and that is that those who do good would be rewarded while those who do evil will receive punishment. One must understand the context Jesus is saying when it comes to Judgment, as well as corelate it to other verses that concerns Judgment.

The bottom line quesiton is to help resolve or understand the tension between repenting of mortal sins for salvation vs. doing good deeds.

There is really no tension. As the Church often affirms, one must first repent one’s sins. Repentance is still needed, then doing good to rectify one’s sinful life. It would help to recall how the Sacrament of Reconciliation is: we first confess our sins, repent, then we are admonished to do penance. Penance isn’t merely doing what the priest recommends you to do after Confession (saying Our Father, etc.) but actually to put away one’s sinful life, and strive to live the life Christ wants us to live.

 

[banjo]

There is one other thing which should be mentioned. While we can judge an action to be grave, the judgment of persons must be entrusted “to the justice and mercy of God.” CCC1861

 

[Genesis315]

Sure, what we do for the least among us we do for Jesus. But that doesn’t mean what we do directly to Jesus doesn’t matter. When we sin mortally we turn our back on Christ. Helping everyone else and spitting in Christ’s face is not going to get you saved.

 

[GordonBOPS]

OK, how about this, vice versa, one who goes to confession often and in fact makes a good confession direction before having a sudden heart attack. This person, lets say, did not do anything to help his neighbor. Again, we can’t know for certain God’s judgments, but isn’t the virtue of a good confession moments before death going to save this person’s soul regardless of thier cooperation with the Grace of helping one’s neighbor?

 

[TheGarg]

GordonBOPS:

OK, how about this, vice versa, one who goes to confession often and in fact makes a good confession direction before having a sudden heart attack. This person, lets say, did not do anything to help his neighbor. Again, we can’t know for certain God’s judgments, but isn’t the virtue of a good confession moments before death going to save this person’s soul regardless of thier cooperation with the Grace of helping one’s neighbor?

Repent, and Serve, Gordon, and you shall make it to heaven!..lol…these questions are for the Lord, not for us. He is the Judge!..

There is a Roadmap to salvation, in the Church, who Defends the Word.

Grace + Faith + Works = Salvation.

deo iuvante

 

[GordonBOPS]

TheGarg:

Repent, and Serve, Gordon, and you shall make it to heaven!..lol…these questions are for the Lord, not for us. He is the Judge!..

There is a Roadmap to salvation, in the Church, who Defends the Word.

Grace + Faith + Works = Salvation.

deo iuvante

Well, of course I understand that, I’m just trying to understand this aspect of scripture in light of things like deathbed baptisms, and confessions of very sinful and selfish people. **

 

[GordonBOPS]

…and to be more specific, to understand how a deathbed baptism can guarantee heaven to one who may have lived a horrible life in light of the passage about the sheep and the goats.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

This is the problem with people taking any one part of scripture out of context and coming up with a formula for what you need to do to “get saved”. Hence you have people who take the position that all you need is faith, and it doesn’t matter what sins you commit as long as you believe Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, or the position that salvation is simply a matter of living a good life, or as described here, simply a matter of doing good works for the poor, never mind any other sin you may commit. You even have people who decide that being saved means that you pick up rattlesnakes and drink poison, because that too is in the gospels.

Reading the Scriptures as a whole gives the Church a much more balanced approach… it’s all important, and there’s no one thing that you need to the exclusion of everything else. Basically we are all called to holiness, which means loving God above all else, and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Implicit in that is that we strive to avoid sin, we serve the poor, we worship God in private and in public, we go to Mass and seek the sacraments. Although we generally avoid the rattlesnakes… I don’t think we’re missing anything there!

 

[rwoehmke]

Bobby Jim:

This is the problem with people taking any one part of scripture out of context and coming up with a formula for what you need to do to “get saved”. Hence you have people who take the position that all you need is faith, and it doesn’t matter what sins you commit as long as you believe Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, or the position that salvation is simply a matter of living a good life, or as described here, simply a matter of doing good works for the poor, never mind any other sin you may commit. You even have people who decide that being saved means that you pick up rattlesnakes and drink poison, because that too is in the gospels.

Reading the Scriptures as a whole gives the Church a much more balanced approach… it’s all important, and there’s no one thing that you need to the exclusion of everything else. Basically we are all called to holiness, which means loving God above all else, and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Implicit in that is that we strive to avoid sin, we serve the poor, we worship God in private and in public, we go to Mass and seek the sacraments. Although we generally avoid the rattlesnakes… I don’t think we’re missing anything there!

I will go with Bobby Jim. One must consider all of Scripture and not just a particular set of verses. It is profoundly evident that rightousness has more than one dimension. It is not either or but both this and that and even then one can only hope for salvation and do ones best. To assume ones definite salvation is the sin of presumption after all. This life is no time to be totally comfortable like the pharisee in the temple beating his chest and telling the Lord how great he is while the sinner in the rear asks for mercy because he realizes his shortcomings.

 

[TheGarg]

Bobby Jim:

This is the problem with people taking any one part of scripture out of context and coming up with a formula for what you need to do to “get saved”. Hence you have people who take the position that all you need is faith, and it doesn’t matter what sins you commit as long as you believe Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, or the position that salvation is simply a matter of living a good life, or as described here, simply a matter of doing good works for the poor, never mind any other sin you may commit. You even have people who decide that being saved means that you pick up rattlesnakes and drink poison, because that too is in the gospels.

Reading the Scriptures as a whole gives the Church a much more balanced approach… it’s all important, and there’s no one thing that you need to the exclusion of everything else. Basically we are all called to holiness, which means loving God above all else, and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Implicit in that is that we strive to avoid sin, we serve the poor, we worship God in private and in public, we go to Mass and seek the sacraments. Although we generally avoid the rattlesnakes… I don’t think we’re missing anything there!

if you notice, my formula is absolutley not OSAS. it takes all three parts equally, and if one is left you will not find salvation.

 

[Ignatius]

GordonBOPS:

Scripture refers to a great global event in which the goats are separated from the sheep and the goats (who didn’t “help” the least among us) are condemned, but the sheep (who DID “help” the least among us) are saved. Now, how does this fit with the idea of unrepented mortal sin being the basic determining factor of salvation. Would one who helps the least among us (i.e. does all the things a sheep would have done), but who is say, shacking up with her boyfriend (and is unrepentant about it), isn’t that individual saved as well?

The bottom line quesiton is to help resolve or understand the tension between repenting of mortal sins for salvation vs. doing good deeds.

This is a false dichotomy. It’s like saying, well what if Hitler was actually a good person in spite of all of his evil. The condition of your heart is everything. Scripture tells us “even if you sell all that you have and give it to the poor” and don’t love God, it is as nothing. You cannot be in opposition to God and still please him; you have to choose to do His will or not. That is not to say you may not fall, All have fallen short of the glory of God. But you need to understand what unrepented Mortal sin means. It means that you are in opposition to God. Unrepented mortal sin separates us from God. Unrepentent means that you are not willing to turn back to God. Repenting your sin is stipulated throughout Holy Scripture as necessary for salvation. For He is merciful and quick to forgive those who turn to Him.

May the peace of Christ be with you.