The good thief

[gap51]

Perhaps this may enlighten us all a bit more.

God bless you all.

 

[TobyLue]

Jesus said “Today you will be with me in paradise”. He died around 3Pm on what we now call Friday. When did Jesus ascend into heaven? To me “to be with Jesus” is paradise in itself, regardless of where Jesus is. Thats just my opinion.

 

[gap51]

Shiann:

Purgatory is NOT hell.

The Bosom of Abraham is “limbus patrum” or “Limbo of the Fathers.”

It depends upon what **THE **hell we are talking about.

If “gehenna” no
If “sheol” or “hades” then yes. See the Hebrew “sheol” translated into Greek became “hades” which in turn translated to “purgatorio” in Latin. Hear Scott Hahn’s explanation.

The Apostles’ Creed reference to “hell” is “hades” in the Greek version hence my statement “***this ***hell (purgatory ?)” made in a previous post.

English dictionaries give “hell” as definition to all of these 3 words.

Rand Al’Thor hope this will help you with your protestant friend.

God bless you all.

 

[gap51]

Rand Al’Thor that site again

 

[Shiann]

gap51:

It depends upon what **THE **hell we are talking about.

If “gehenna” no
If “sheol” or “hades” then yes. See the Hebrew “sheol” translated into Greek became “hades” which in turn translated to “purgatorio” in Latin. Hear Scott Hahn’s explanation.

The Apostles’ Creed reference to “hell” is “hades” in the Greek version hence my statement “***this ***hell (purgatory ?)” made in a previous post.

English dictionaries give “hell” as definition to all of these 3 words.

Rand Al’Thor hope this will help you with your protestant friend.

God bless you all.

All that is true, but purgatory is outside of Hell.

Again:
Catholic Encyclopedia on Limbo:

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory.

As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven.

Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission.

Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward.

And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.

Limbo of the Fathers (sheol or hades) is distinct from purgatory.

 

[porthos11]

There was an argument on a previous thread around a year ago as to whether the man died under the old Covenant or the New one. Many (myself included) think he still died under the Old Covenant because Jesus hadn’t yet risen when the man died, and therefore joined Jesus in Sheol. Which means, I think Paradise here isn’t heaven, but the place in Sheol where the just souls waited for Jesus to re-open heaven for them. In any case, since Jesus promised the man that he would be with him, when heaven re-opened, it’s a good bet the man went straight to heaven from Sheol.

But even if Paradise referred to is heaven, we need to see why Jesus promised that the man would be with him anyway. In order for the man to be with the Lord, he would have to be justified through the grace of baptism. It would appear that that grace was provided through Baptism of Desire, since the man (1) repented of his sins; (2) defended Jesus; and (3) he acknowledged Jesus as King and asked him to remember him. Plus the ordinary circumstances were not present: there was no water with which to baptize. Plus Jesus’ hands were nailed to the cross.

If we can assume that the man enjoyed baptism by desire, then the graces of baptism would have been given him, which includes remission of all sin and temporal punishment, including Purgatory.