The Gospel of John is the only book needed for salvation...

[ERose]

Lets look at what the Bible teaches about being saved or salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind. (Including baptism) Ephesians 2:8-9.

I think that for you there is a confusion here. Many Protestants believe that Catholics believe that one is saved by works alone as opposed by faith alone and that is not true. In fact that belief was condemned as heresy by the Church early in its history. The heresy is usually referred to as Pelagainism and Semi-Pelagainism. I agree with you statement that the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Works are the fruit of this grace and are evidence of this grace. Baptism along with the other Sacraments are dispensors of grace, with Baptism being the initiator of dispensing what we call Sanctifying grace.

“Belief” is necessary for salvation, which is consistant with all the other verses in the Bible that deal with salvation especially where only “belief” or “faith” is mentioned. (John 3:18, 5:28, 12:44, 20:13, 1 John 5:13)

The difference between you and I is what is meant by “belief”. It seems to me that from your comments and comments of others I have dealt with “belief” is a proclamation of faith in Jesus and that is all. Catholics go further than that. “Belief” is not just accepting that Jesus is the personal Lord and Savior, but also following Him. Obeying Him. Doing all that He tells us to do. Believing everything that He taught us.

“He who “believes” and is baptized will be saved. He who “does not believe” will be condemned.”
Here the deternining factor if one is saved or condemned is whether or not they “believe.”

Let us look at Mark 16: [15] And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Jesus says to go out and preach the gospel. This is done so that the people may have something to believe first. What is the gospel? Well what Jesus taught His disciples isn’t it. Then in verse 16 He says that he that believes AND is baptized, shall be saved. I do not know if they teach basic logic in Baptist seminaries but in logic the conjunction “and” requires both that which is in front of and behind the “and”. It says in plain English here that to be saved one must “believe” AND “be baptized” to be saved. Of course your focus is on the following statement, “but he that believeth not shall be condemned.” Well one question for you, if I do not believe what the Apostles tell me would I receive baptism? Why would anyone get baptized or initiated into a church or religion when they do not believe what they are hearing to begin with? That would be insane.

So if baptism is necessary to be saved it would say, “He who “does not believe” and is “not baptized” will be condemned.” But this statement is not found. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that if you are not baptized you will be condemned.

So, you won’t take the statement of Mark 16:16 because it is a positive statement? You only want a negative statement to satisfy you?

Mark 16:16 is a very clear and precise statement my friend. For you to reject it requires you to jump through semantic hurtles and that should tell you in itself that you are going in the wrong direction on this argument.

The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone.

Is it? I notice you only accept negative statements so here is one that you should accept:
Jame 2: 24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? The only place in the whole Bible that uses the words “faith” and “only” or “alone”, rejects the premise that we are saved by faith only. So obviously you are missing something.

Throughout the Bible people have been saved without being baptized.

Throughout the Old Testament, Baptism was not required but rather circumcision to be part of the nation of God. Baptism supplanted circumcision because of Jesus’ teaching. Unless one be born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Cannot ask for more plain speaking that that.

You asked another poster about the thief on the cross. He didn’t receive Baptism, but he was saved by Christ. The Catholic church recognizes this. There are times when someone either “a” doesn’t know that he needs baptism and never receives it, and if he did know he would have; “b” those who through no fault of their own die before they get an opportunity to be baptized, but had the desire to be baptized. These people receive baptism through desire. This is the case of the thief. He was converted upon the cross and as such was unable through no fault of his own to receive proper baptism. So Christ gave him the grace of Baptism without the actual rite of baptism.

Because this does happen occasionally because of extraordinary circumstances does not make Baptism not necessary. What it shows is the justice of God in that He will not hold our soul ransom because we were not able to do what He calls us to do through no fault of our own.

Baptism is a testimony of faith and a public declaration that one believes in Jesus Christ.
The Bible never says if you are not baptized you are not saved.

Show me where it says in the Bible that Baptism is just a profession of faith? The Bible tells us far more often that baptism is required than it says that it is a profession of faith. I gave you two simple passages and you have failed to refute one and the other you have not tried. Open you eyes and your heart my friend and see what is before you. In plain language.

 

[ERose]

Continued…

Abuse of the term. Youi mean like “we have been around for 2000 years” or “we are the church founded by Jesus Christ” or “by what authority.” Terms like that?

Well all I can say is their wrong.

It seems that all you can do is “say”. You do not seem to have to ability to “prove”. But I wouldn’t expect you to have that gift since no one has the power to “prove” that the Catholic Church’s teachings are wrong.

You are always saved once you accept Jesus Christ but you can loose your salvation, your path to heaven if you go against Jesus Christ. Jesus will never leave us once we accept him, (bings saved) but when we sin we are out of fellowship with Jesus (can loose our salvation, heaven)

Quite honestly I am confused a little here. Let me get this straight in my mind then. You are saying that we are always saved once we accept Jesus as long as we do not sin and turn from God? If this is what you are saying then your assertion is comparable to the Catholic one. We also believe that once we are justified or saved we are saved as long as we are without sin and follow God. But when we turn away from God we are no longer saved until we get “right” with God again. The only area I see that is in dispute between you and I are when we are justified or saved. Am I correct?

Thanks for the prayers.

Your welcome, Kevin, that is what brothers do, no? God bless

 

[SonCatcher]

Once you accept Jesus you are saved. He will never leave you. You can’t, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We are all sinners. Confessing your sins daily to God.

Once you accept Jesus you are saved even if ones faith becomes dormant, Jesus will never leave you once you accept him.

I think I see where you are going with this.

You say “Once you accept Jesus you are saved. He will never leave you.” as though this is the means of admission to the Church. According to your statement, if a “saved” person sins and then dies without reconciling, then that person who belongs to Christ would lose Heaven (necessarily, that means he would go to Hell).

Catholics see Baptism as the ordinary means of admission to the Church (while not denying extraordinary means). Once Baptized, a person may never repeat the sacrament, no matter how sinful his life since may have been. Yet, he must be reconciled to return to grace (that is, to be eligible to enter Heaven).

Do I have this correct?

If so, then I challenge this: If there is an Ordinary means to Salvation (Baptism, as clearly described in the previously cited verses) then why put your dependence on extraordinary means that we have no assurance of?

PS - Please define what it means to “accept Jesus.”

PPS - you have not responded to the citation of John 3:5 on the necessity of Baptism.

 

[pablope]

Once you accept Jesus you are saved. He will never leave you. You can’t, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We are all sinners. Confessing your sins daily to God.

Once you accept Jesus you are saved even if ones faith becomes dormant, Jesus will never leave you once you accept him.

Follow up questions:

**Confessing your sins daily to God: **If one commits the same sins over and over…with no change in the person…it is your opinion his sins are still forgiven? Is this not then “vain repetition”?

Once you accept Jesus you are saved even if ones faith becomes dormant, Jesus will never leave you once you accept him.

If one’s faith has become dormant, well, obviously the person has forgotten God or Jesus, or has become slothful, most likely continues to sin and does not confess his sins everyday…how can he still be saved? How do you reconcile this with what you said about someone’s dormant faith?
Or how do you reconcile your statement with Matt 7: 21:

21(A) "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[John1]

The Gospel of John is a great book, as are the other books of the Bible. All the Old Testament and all the New Testament books need to be read in order to get a better understanding of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and a better understanding of what being a “Christian” really means. Maybe we get a better understanding of the Truth, of our Faith, and of our need of Salvation from reading all the Bible and not just part.

 

[Matorin]

Is there a distinction between someone who believes but is not baptised and is not saved, and someone who believes and is baptised and is saved? Or is the difference always between unbelief and belief with baptism?

And why are you arguing baptism anyway? Do you not both agree you should be baptised?

No one is able to “keep” their salvation. That implies I am holding on to it. I think the point he is trying to make is that if we were such wretches and God still saved us, why would he now abandon us because we sin once again? Or even repeatedly again?

 

[pablope]

Is there a distinction between someone who believes but is not baptised and is not saved, and someone who believes and is baptised and is saved? Or is the difference always between unbelief and belief with baptism?

And why are you arguing baptism anyway? Do you not both agree you should be baptised?

No one is able to “keep” their salvation. That implies I am holding on to it. I think the point he is trying to make is that if we were such wretches and God still saved us, why would he now abandon us because we sin once again? Or even repeatedly again?

First of all…what is sin? Doesn’t it hurt God/Jesus and separates you from Him? If you continue to sin, then you continously hurt Jesus. Isn’t the core of Jesus teaching to repent and sin no more and renew your life?

If sin hurts Jesus, then why do you continue hurting Jesus? Should you not then make an effort not to sin anymore?

Matt 7: 21
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

What does this mean to you? Just merly saying “Lord Lord” and continue sinning will not suffice, but you need to do the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father?