The Holy Trinity in Genesis: How?

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arius325 said:
Reply,

As it appears that you do not know anthying about Hebrew or English grammar or syntax etc, let yourself be educated in empiricism (actual facts)!

The Hebrew term for the English, “create” is “bara”, whereas, the “let us make…” in Hebrew is “na-aseh”. One term denoting to, “create”, whereras, the other is, “let us make” the two terms are diametrically apart, one denoting a singularity and the other a duality, i.e. only One creates, whereas the other assists or participates in such creation (bara v na-aseh) i.e. God said, “let us make make…” not 'let us create…" ! man in our image…! Have you clocked on yet professor?

This is a basic theological mistake on your part, motivated by bias and obvious, but inoccent ignorance!

"Image and Likeness". I believe St. Aquinas said it perfectly when writing the Contra Gentiles:"

I’m not interersted in what “Aquinas” said, only in emprical fact, of which you have provided none, so-far!

Best wishes to all,

Letusreason
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LOL! JW’s experts on empirical evidence? :rotfl: How many false predictions? Oh yeah…enlighten us all with the great JW wisdom and knowledge.
 
chris62 said:
In Genesis 1:26 it reads: “Let us make man in our own image.”

This is written in the plural.

Is this God ( through the Holy Spirit to the writers) referring to the Holy Trinity?

If not, how did the writers of Genesis know of God being plural, a thousand years before Jesus told us?
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Reply,

A basic flaw here reveals a lack of knowledge of Hebrew terms. The Genesis text says, “let us MAKE…” not ‘let us CREATE…” the term “make” is derived from the Hebrew term “na-aseh” (Look at v16 where the same term is used),

Using the term “make” (na-aseh) in a co-operative and inclusive sense, does not make the one included a co-creator, merely a helper, the term for “create” in Hebrew is “bara” and is used, in the absolute sense of God the Father, who is the primary cause, anything else is used in a secondary sense and not the absolute sense! (See 2 Cor 1:3; Eph 1:3; 1 Pet 1:3 and Rev 3:12)
 
letussee said:
Using the term “make” (na-aseh) in a co-operative and inclusive sense, does not make the one included a co-creator, merely a helper, the term for “create” in Hebrew is “bara” and is used, in the absolute sense of God the Father, who is the primary cause, anything else is used in a secondary sense and not the absolute sense! (See 2 Cor 1:3; Eph 1:3; 1 Pet 1:3 and Rev 3:12)
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Welcome back, arius.

In relation to John 1:3

[BIBLEDRB]john 1:3[/BIBLEDRB]

Please, elaborate how the Father is only agent of act when John is directly stating that the Word (Christ) made all things, and without Him nothing would be made.

Also, I would like to hear an argument from you that logically has God have “helpers” in creation. Please give short premises and a conclusion paragraph.

And, I want an answer about Gen 18. You thoughts?

Pax
 
I’m not sure what the writer of Genesis meant. Maybe the whole heavenly court or Father ,Son,Holy Spirit or both. The Trinity makes a lot of sense because God’s Word creates,the Father is present since he is the Father of us all and the Holy Spirit is there because his Spirit saves through water baptism. What really gets me is why does the writer use Elohim which is translated as Gods,plural. Is it pointing back to the Trinity? It doesn’t seem that it does. Some say that Elohim was borrowed from another language were it wasn’t identified by the writer as plural.
 
chris62 said:
In Genesis 1:26 it reads: “Let us make man in our own image.”

This is written in the plural.

Is this God ( through the Holy Spirit to the writers) referring to the Holy Trinity?

If not, how did the writers of Genesis know of God being plural, a thousand years before Jesus told us?
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Not to mention that God manifested himself to Abraham as 3 men. Abraham believed one is God and the other two were merely angels. But it is this image that the Eastern Christians use to depict the Trinity on a Holy Icon

extravagantcreation.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/trinity-icon.jpg

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 18:1-2[/BIBLEDRB]
 
(Edited)
…and where and whom the faithful & discreet slave was before Russell…
 
The text you quoted in Genesis does not suggest a trinity at all. Yes, it does suggest plurality as God created things with and through the Word (Son, Jesus Christ as John 1explains). The Trinity doctrine came centuries later as part of the general corruption and manipulation of scripture by theologians and scholars, suggesting among other things that the Holy Spirit is God. There is no scripture that teaches or even suggests that the Holy Spirit is also God.
 
Perhaps we should consider the text where He said:
“Going therefore teaching all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”
By implication, doen’t this indicate that all three are equal?
 
FKhiva said:
The text you quoted in Genesis does not suggest a trinity at all. Yes, it does suggest plurality as God created things with and through the Word (Son, Jesus Christ as John 1explains). The Trinity doctrine came centuries later as part of the general corruption and manipulation of scripture by theologians and scholars, suggesting among other things that the Holy Spirit is God. There is no scripture that teaches or even suggests that the Holy Spirit is also God.
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Hello and Ave Maria!

I’m confused, you state that this verse suggests plurality in light of John 1, and refuse the Holy Spirit as the Three Person of the Godhead. What are you suggesting, a two person Godhead?

We can conclude the Holy Spirit is an active intelligent agent whom proceeds from God the Father and God the Son (Luke 24:49; John 15:26; 16:7; 20:22; Acts 2:33; Titus 3:6).

We also conclude that the Holy Spirit is truth (John 14:17) and guides the Church in all truths (John16:13). Only God is truth, whom was fully revealed in the Word (John 1:1).

As the Word proclaimed that sin against the Son is forgivable but sin against the Holy Spirit is not forgivable (Matthew 12:32). Not forgivable? This seems to put the Holy Spirit on an equal field with God the Father and God the Son.

For whom raised Christ from the dead? Acts 2:32 says God did, John 2:19 says Christ raised Himself up, Romans 8:11 says the Holy Sprit did. It seems as though the three were acting as one God.

Finally when Christ said in Luke 4:8 ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’" when quoting Deuteronomy 6:13, God ultimately telling us to only worship Him. Yet in Philippians 3:3 Paul stated we worship the Spirit. Thus concluding the Spirit is God.

Looking forward to your reponse,
Pax Domini
 
How did the writers know what to write? God wrote thru them. How did they know about the Trinity? God told them. It’s that simple…and wonderful. Thank God. God bless.
 
FKhiva said:
The text you quoted in Genesis does not suggest a trinity at all. Yes, it does suggest plurality as God created things with and through the Word (Son, Jesus Christ as John 1explains). The Trinity doctrine came centuries later as part of the general corruption and manipulation of scripture by theologians and scholars, suggesting among other things that the Holy Spirit is God. There is no scripture that teaches or even suggests that the Holy Spirit is also God.
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You are correct in stating that the trinity doctrine isn’t explicite in Scriptures. We know of it firstly because when the Apostles taught about the Holy Spirit it was obvious that they were describing God. This also applies when they spoke of Jesus. Where do you find a higher teaching authority than the authority given to the community that surrounds Jesus since the beginning?
By what teaching authority do you claim that the Church corrupted and manipulated Scriptures?
 
Benadam said:
You are correct in stating that the trinity doctrine isn’t explicite in Scriptures. We know of it firstly because when the Apostles taught about the Holy Spirit it was obvious that they were describing God. This also applies when they spoke of Jesus. Where do you find a higher teaching authority than the authority given to the community that surrounds Jesus since the beginning?
By what teaching authority do you claim that the Church corrupted and manipulated Scriptures?
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Not only that, but we see the Early Church Fathers mentioning the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit many times throughout their writings, so we have a continuity of belief. The Trinitarian doctrine came about primarily because of heresies that kept trying to define how the Godhead related to itself and then confer it as an erroneous article of belief. The reaction against Monarchical Modalism (Sabellianism) gave rise to another extreme, Arianism, which then the Council of Nicea was called to issue a formal authoritatively binding definition of the the Holy Trinity is and what it isn’t.

On a side note, I know that the thread topic is on the appearance of the Trinity in Genesis 18, but has anyone read 2 Maccabees 3 recently? I’ve been wrestling around with this as to whether it’s another manifestation of the Holy Trinity or not.
 
the gospel of john also tells that Jesus the word existed in the very beginning with God.
“let us make man in our image”
“the lord said to my lord, sit at the place of honor at my right side…”

both we see God the father and God the son.
 
Andrew1983 said:
On a side note, I know that the thread topic is on the appearance of the Trinity in Genesis 18, but has anyone read 2 Maccabees 3 recently? I’ve been wrestling around with this as to whether it’s another manifestation of the Holy Trinity or not.
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Andrew, I answer in the affirmative in referece to 2Maccabees 3. The horse and rider brings to mind Jesus turning over the money changers tables. A few other details point to trinitarian theology as well.
 
chris62 said:
In Genesis 1:26 it reads: “Let us make man in our own image.”

This is written in the plural.

Is this God ( through the Holy Spirit to the writers) referring to the Holy Trinity?

If not, how did the writers of Genesis know of God being plural, a thousand years before Jesus told us?
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Just my :twocents: but IMHO there (“is”) no action of God throughout the His entire miraculous Existence that doesn’t involve the Mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Even the entire time Jesus the Son of God was on earth the Father and Holy Spirit were very much nearby. I don’t doubt this for a second.

Saint John of the Cross writes some of most beautiful inspired Poetry about the Divine Romance of The Mystery of Holy Trinity right up to the moment of the Incarnation of Jesus.

#1.
2.bp.blogspot.com/_eR2yt0UgljQ/SfXnF5-vc1I/AAAAAAAAAMQ/XWLMlWrOb4U/s1600-h/john1.bmp
#2.
4.bp.blogspot.com/_eR2yt0UgljQ/SfXnAzWhRAI/AAAAAAAAAMI/h7V3xrK6CzI/s1600-h/john2.bmp
#3.
3.bp.blogspot.com/_eR2yt0UgljQ/SfXm665kuiI/AAAAAAAAAMA/S1fdpZ8To6E/s1600-h/john3.bmp
#4.
1.bp.blogspot.com/_eR2yt0UgljQ/SfXmzV5wToI/AAAAAAAAAL4/xLTw6H8MT6w/s1600-h/john4.bmp
#5.
1.bp.blogspot.com/_eR2yt0UgljQ/SfXmsyR6dqI/AAAAAAAAALw/xp2PQNt6sdY/s1600-h/john5.bmp
 
GEN 11:7 “Let us go down”
GEN 1:26 “Let us make man in our image” See Is 44:24, Neh 9:6

KEY OT word = 'echad

The Schema of the Jews hints at a unity of one.
Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.”
Operative word in Deut is " 'echad" means a unity of one ex one bunch of grapes
versus yachid - a solitary of one; one grape
one day - morning, noon, evening
one family - father, mother, child or children
The Lord our God is a unity of 3 persons IMPLICITLY found in OT, made much more clear by Our Lord.
Anyone who tells you God is a Solitude is not fully informed
 
Years ago my dear group of friends & I were discussing the Trinity (20 years ago)

God is Love
Jesus/ The Word is the Beloved
the love between Them is the Holy Spirit

God did not need creation to Love Him or HE WOULD NOT BE the unchanging GOD (I changeth not). He was not GOD all alone by Himself or He would not be “Love” He is NOT dependent on creation to be Love as He’s perfect as God, the way He has always been. Creation did not change God the great “I AM”

bottom line: impossible to be God a solitary and be love.👍
 
I was just reading about this. John 8:58-Before Abraham was ever born, I am. Genesis is confirming this. The Holy Spirit is formed from the love of the Father and the Son, which is why Jesus had to ascend into heaven to send The Holy Spirit to the Apostles.
 
In Genesis 1 neither the water, nor the spirit are created. They are just there.

The water represents the Word of God which is the Son of God, the bar Elohim.
Ge 1:1 bereshit bara Elohim is the source for John 1:1 see it here: wiki.sensusplenior.net/index.php/Ge_1:1 It clearly teaches that God is a Trinity.

In Gen 1:1 the word for heavens is a dual form, so the two heavens and the one earth represent the Trinity where the Son is separated from the Father and the Holy Ghost. The same word that means ‘create’ also means ‘divide’.

Since Christ is the alpha and omega, he is ‘the beginning’ as well. Genesis 1:1 reads “In Christ, Elohim divided the two heavens from the one earth.” as another hint of the Trinity.

bereshit shares gematria with ‘three which are one’ and even the rabbis confess to the triune nature of God. They allegorize the three natures into things like beauty, and love, etc.

The fact that the Jews do not admit that the scriptures speak of the Trinity is not due to the methods of interpretation, but due to their will. As God said, “… you would not…”.
 
Benadam said:
Andrew, I answer in the affirmative in referece to 2Maccabees 3. The horse and rider brings to mind Jesus turning over the money changers tables. A few other details point to trinitarian theology as well.
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Well, I submitted a commentary on 2 Macc. 3 to my parish priest and deacon, so hopefully they’ll have some good feedback on that. I’ll see about posting my notes in a separate thread.
 
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