The Horror: This is Why Catholic Traditionalist Fear Pope Francis

[LiberalPrincess]

I think it is incredibly disrespectful when (some) traditionalists try to spin Pope Francis’ interviews and words, saying “this is what he REALLY meant” to say. I think his words are crystal clear, and we should heed his wisdom.

 

[Brendan_64]

I think it is incredibly disrespectful when (some) traditionalists try to spin Pope Francis’ interviews and words, saying “this is what he REALLY meant” to say. I think his words are crystal clear, and we should heed his wisdom.

 

[Jaberwocky]

The sinners sitting with Jesus and his disciples were not disciples of Jesus themselves. They had not accepted Jesus as their Lord, yet still he sat and ate with them.

How do you know that? Jesus knows the heart of the person. You and I do not. That is why we wait for a person to come in to Church rather than presume they are all Catholic and give them all communion.

The Pharisees saw this and displayed towards Jesus, a very similar attitude that some are now displaying towards Pope Francis. They are saying “Why does he sit with sinners?”

No! You are mistaken. The question being asked is why are we called to sit with Pharisees and accept them.

The world outside is not just sinners. They are Pharisees in that they do not want to accept their sinfulness. They feel that the Church is the immoral institution, not them.

We should not turn anyone away from the Church. We should welcome all sinners (repentant and unrepentant) as Jesus did. To criticise Pope Francis of welcoming all sinners is to be like the Pharisees.

If a person comes to Church and says they love to have sex with their mother every night and there is nothing wrong with that, then you do not accept him.

St. Paul himself made that clear in his letters to Corinth and chastised the Corinthians for their arrogance for allowing such a person in.

 

[shelby_sun]

I think it is incredibly disrespectful when (some) traditionalists try to spin Pope Francis’ interviews and words, saying “this is what he REALLY meant” to say. I think his words are crystal clear, and we should heed his wisdom.

I often find when you have a person who truly thinks they know everything and are never wrong, the actually know very little and miss the whole point, which I find very sad when we are taking about our Catholic faith. It amazes me how close they think they are to God, when they are really very closed off from Him. They seem to get a feeling of power from “knowing” the Church and all its ways.

 

[Brendan_64]

How do you know that? Jesus knows the heart of the person. You and I do not. That is why we wait for a person to come in to Church rather than presume they are all Catholic and give them all communion.

Because scripture say that the sinners were sitting with Jesus and his disciples. In other words the sinners referred to were not disciples themselves.

If a person comes to Church and says they love to have sex with their mother every night and there is nothing wrong with that, then you do not accept him.

Yes, I would accept that person as a member of the Church. Sin does not mean expulsion from the Church, nor does it bar entry to the Church.

Within our Church we have despotic tyrannical world leaders with all manner of atrocities on their hands, yet they are still part of our Church. Our Church is not a club simply for the righteous. Grave sin does not lead to expulsion.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Because scripture say that the sinners were sitting with Jesus and his disciples. In other words the sinners referred to were not disciples themselves.

As you may know, everyone apart from Jesus and Mary refer or infer themselves as sinners.

A repentant person is still a sinner and probably still falls in to the same sin. The difference is that there is an attempt to repent again, confess and amend ones life.

Yes, I would accept that person as a member of the Church. Sin does not mean expulsion from the Church, nor does it bar entry to the Church.

Within our Church we have despotic tyrannical world leaders with all manner of atrocities on their hands, yet they are still part of our Church. Our Church is not a club simply for the righteous. Grave sin does not lead to expulsion.

So you already admit that you are unorthodox and like the Corinthians that St. Paul admonishes for allowing an unrepentant person with sexual immorality in to the Church. If you feel that St. Paul is not right on the matter, I doubt you will listen to me.

 

[Brendan_64]

As you may know, everyone apart from Jesus and Mary refer or infer themselves as sinners.

A repentant person is still a sinner and probably still falls in to the same sin. The difference is that there is an attempt to repent again, confess and amend ones life. .

You’re missing the point. Scripture indicates that the sinners sitting with Jesus and his disciples were not disciples of Jesus, otherwise they would have themselves been part of the disciples, because as you rightly point out, all disciples of Jesus (except Mary) are sinners. So if these sinners sitting with Jesus and his disciples (who are also sinners) are referred to as separate from Jesus’s disciples, then they must not be disciples. They were sinners who were not followers of Jesus, they had not accepted him as their Lord.

So you already admit that you are unorthodox and like the Corinthians that St. Paul admonishes for allowing an unrepentant person with sexual immorality in to the Church. If you feel that St. Paul is not right on the matter, I doubt you will listen to me.

So what of Pope Francis then? Is he also unorthodox?

And what of tyrants with the blood of many innocents on their hands and they still persist with their actions? Are they welcome within our Church? Ought we to expel them?

 

[Jaberwocky]

You’re missing the point. Scripture indicates that the sinners sitting with Jesus and his disciples were not disciples of Jesus, otherwise they would have themselves been part of the disciples, because as you rightly point out, all disciples of Jesus (except Mary) are sinners. So if these sinners sitting with Jesus and his disciples (who are also sinners) are referred to as separate from Jesus’s disciples, then they must not be disciples. They were sinners who were not followers of Jesus, they had not accepted him as their Lord.

Not all repentant sinners were disciples.

So what of Pope Francis then? Is he also unorthodox?

No. This whole discussion is proof that many have misunderstood his interview to mean that there is a tension between Moral Laws and discipline of the Church vs. Jesus’s love and mercy.

Pope Francis did not (and couldn’t have) said that because that is contrary to what the Church has taught for two thousand years. Yet many like you have walked away after reading the interview that it is exactly what is been said. That has been my problem with the interview.

And what of tyrants with the blood of many innocents on their hands and they still persist with their actions? Are they welcome within our Church? Ought we to expel them?

The tyrants who persistently continue to kill innocent life after it has been pointed out to them should be removed from the Church community, yes! That is not my decision but what the Apostles themselves had commanded that we do.

 

[Veridical16]

I think it is incredibly disrespectful when (some) traditionalists try to spin Pope Francis’ interviews and words, saying “this is what he REALLY meant” to say. I think his words are crystal clear, and we should heed his wisdom.

I don’t think any specific "side " of Catholic is innocent of finalizing /clarifying what the Pope “really meant” – that there is discussion says enough.

Mudslinging between perceived "traditionalists " and “liberals” and “Catholics in good standing” is a sign that the Church is not unified. Those words are so meaningless as everyone who identifies with them can’t agree with others who identify likewise, are truly “one of them”

It is stupid. We are individual Catholics seeking to strengthen our faith and that should be the end of it.

Brendan says :

We should not turn anyone away from the Church. To criticise Pope Francis of welcoming all sinners is to be like the Pharisees.

There is a distinction to be made.
To call someone Pharisees, for the specific case about being “Rule minded and hypocritical” is one thing, but I hope you know to use them as an example is a sign that Jesus did not always extend his mercy , but his justice to the sinners in the gospel. Particularly the sinners who should have known better. The Sinners WERE ALSO the Pharisees. (Not all, as he did manage to reach Nicodemus, and others)

I hope you know at the time, the Jews of that day, taht Jesus Chastized were guilty of abusing children,

That’s why he mentions the millstone. That’s why Jesus says to certain Sinners in the gospel, This is why *" you will die in your sins" * because they mistreated children, because they didn’t even listen to the mouths of babes, acknowledging Jesus as the son of David.

To embrace Christ is to go all in, there is nothing wrong with any Catholic reaching out to the sinners with the caution to “sin no more”

But remember the words , Jesus came "For the many" , not “for all” , so that “Some may be saved” not “All” because Jesus prophesizes that not all will choose him.

That is not an endorsement to not LOVE everyone, as we love our enemies – but to expect all to be treated with a one size fits all approach as if Jesus did that? That is preposterous

Jesus treated those outside with care, those on the margins with much care, the pariahs. Jesus treated those sinners and those knowledgeable about God, the hypocrites, the leadership, the worldly with his justice, as a STERN FATHER.

He didn’t take time to dine with the money changers. He whipped them and chased them out. Those at the temple who were there for purely livelihoods and innocence, he treated more gently.

Luke 12:47

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

We are in the age of mercy, it is true. But the pagans of today are not the pagans of old.
In fact, I would say many non-Catholics who oppose the Church understand the Catholic Faith better than Catholics within the Church, even if it is an infantile understanding of philosophical and base theological levels of understanding.

Finally,

We should welcome all sinners (repentant and unrepentant) as Jesus did.

Repentant yes. Unrepentant? That would be imposing something on someone who wills to NOT follow Christ. This doesn’t make any sense.

Jesus did NOT even do this. When he preached the Eucharist , he didn’t chase after those who abandoned him. He even said to his apostles, “Do you also want to leave?”
and they said “we have nowhere else to go” because they knew he was the Truth.

Jesus never tyrannized anyone, and it would be uncharitable to enable a person IN THEIR sins…

All it takes for one MORTAL sin to be damned, it would be a sin of omission. St. Padre Pio has said, he would rather have an empty Church, " than a Church full of devils. "

People are forgetting that the Church is Noah’s Ark…people can’t just have one appendage on the boat clinging, they have to want to be IN the boat sincerely, knowingly.

 

[Brendan_64]

Not all repentant sinners were disciples.

So to whom have they repented and asked for forgiveness?

The tyrants who persistently continue to kill innocent life after it has been pointed out to them should be removed from the Church community, yes! That is not my decision but what the Apostles themselves had commanded that we do.

And yet some such tyrants sat at Pope Francis’s inauguration Mass. No moves to remove such people from our Church. Does that mean that Pope Francis, and Pope Benedict before him are disobeying what the Apostles had been commanded to do?